spur saw knife

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Kiferbros
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spur saw knife

Post by Kiferbros »

this is one for PA knives because I have no clue on this one and am interested in it if it could be what it looks like. here is the details and pic. check them out and let me know. anyone else with input is more than welcome.

Very Rare Old J.M. VANCE & Company ( Cock Spur Saw Knife )
Made in Philadelphia PA. U.S.A.
Order #GK11

This very old and rare "Cock Spur Saw Knife" made by J.M. Vance & Company, a hardware wholesaler of Philadelphia, Pa from 1776-19??. Knife is in mint condition. Unbelievable, this is the first and only one I have ever seen - Cherry condition.

Specifications:
(Blade) Steel - Carbon Steel
Handle - Honey Bone
Blade - Spear and Cock Spur Saw
Closed - 3-5/8"
Weight - 3.7 oz

Features:
Nickel Silver Bolsters
Nickel Silver inlaid shield
Brass liners and pins
Attachments
sawknife.jpg
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El Lobo
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Post by El Lobo »

This knife, or a couple others just like it, has/have been floating around for some time. PA even asked the question in Bernard Levine's forum...

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showt ... light=Spur

Long story short...it's a cobbled knife. Or, as knifeaholic calls them, "an artificial leg joint."

Bill
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Post by 9ball »

Here another made up you may see floating around. There are some real one's out there, few and far between. Queen made one several ago, not knowing the story behind it (to my knowledge) and when they found out what it was used for, said they would never make another.

9ball
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Kiferbros
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A better question then

Post by Kiferbros »

I guess a better question would be who actually made this kind of knife? are there and photos of real ones? this is a knife that holds alot of interest for me but I Know I do not have the knowledge to move on one at this time, espically for the price they go for, and would like to know what to look for? who actually made them, what they looked like. I can read a knife fairly well but when talking about something like this I am in the dark.
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Post by 9ball »

Hello Kiferbros,

Here is the Queen, let me check my notes and I will update this later.

9ball
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Kiferbros
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nice piece

Post by Kiferbros »

nice piece, judging by the etch I am guessing it was made expressly for a club, but did any manufacturer ever make this type of knife for public sale? or is a spur saw knife a newer concept of a knife that was never actually produced for the general public?
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jonet143
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spur knives

Post by jonet143 »

i believe them to be fantasy knives. no doubt the knives exist but as far as cutting the spurs on fighting cocks, i don't believe they were made for that purpose. someone might proove me wrong. it's my opinion.

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CCBill
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Post by CCBill »

Here's one more. It's a Holley mfg. This knife has no signs of having ever been apart.
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Kiferbros
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Post by Kiferbros »

those are the word I'm looking for "fantasy knife" is that what this type of knife is? a fantasy knife? can anyone produce any kind of documantation of a manufacturer actually producing this knife for sale as a regular product (Excluding the Queen club knives)?

to the very of my knowledge and memory I can not rember ever seeing this type of knife in any catalog from any manufacturer (not that I know them all), so I ask can anyone prove that this type of knife was ever produced? (excluding the queen club ones)
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El Lobo
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Post by El Lobo »

There have been knives with saws of that type. There are a couple of examples in the thread I gave you a link to. They may have been used for some surgery, but no one seems to be able to prove that type of saw was ever manufactured with the express purpose of tuning up your...er, ah...bird, for a cockfight. Except maybe the Queen version.

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PA Knives
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Post by PA Knives »

HEY no fair :cry:

I didn't even get a chance to chim in before you guys figured out the answers. Now how I am supposed to give informatin when you guys already know this stuff. :roll: Nice job, I wanted that Vance until Bernard convinced me to look a lot closer at it. I now have one coming this is the real thing and without the saw blade. The biggest problem with this knife is the handles. Not from that era, probably early Schrade. Click on the link that Bill provided to learn more. You will see that it is always a question who made it and when. How does something so smiple as "read the knife" become so difficult. Just ask those that try to cheat us that question and they just smile all the way to the bank. ::tu::
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Post by stockman »

Hello, I have enjoyed this discussion on the cock spur saw, I never gave this much thought until today. What is the saw in the Napanoch tool knife? I had always thought it to be a hack saw but never wanted to try cutting anything with it. You can see a picture of the knife on pg. 297 of Levine 4th edition.


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jonet143
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Post by jonet143 »

i have owned several of the tool kits and most all i have seen have a saw included. suitable for wood or other soft cutting. i guess they were some of the original "multi tools". very suited for carry in autos and often given as advertising. they also include a small hammer. chisel, screwdriver, bottle/can opener, punch and of course a jack knife to attach them to. some are very valuable.

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knifeswapper
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Post by knifeswapper »

The Queen above is undoubtedly for sawing a cocks spurs before fighting. All cockfighting pits have official names that almost always end in "Game Club" as "Game Cock" is one of the lineage that will fight to the death (much as many animals do for breeding rights and continuation of the species).

When cocks fight in nature they have sharp natural spurs on each leg and, if closely matched, will ruin each other (put out eyes, break legs, etc.). A long, long time ago when people decided to bread them specifically for this "game" characteristic they wanted to know which was the best fighter without ruining the winner, as well as the loser.

Thus, they saw the natural spur down to about 1/2" and affix over it a "gaff" which has a socket to fit over the spur. A 2-3" metal heal is attached to these gaffs which is pointed at the end but has no edge; about as big around as a toothpick. With these on each leg the cock that scored the most (and most accurate) strikes would become obvious without ruining the winner. And most times the loser will recover from his wounds as well.

More than you ever wanted to know about why a spur saw...

I have seen them sold as cockfighting knives even up into the Frost era.
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jonet143
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Post by jonet143 »

hi mike, have you ever been to one of these "sporting" events. here in north texas there are quite a few matches held(illegal). lots of betting and generally unsavory charactors. the matches i saw ivolved roosters with very sharp metal spurs and were fought to the death. very messy. in nature, having raised a lot of chickens, squabbles are settled very quickly resulting occasionally in injury to a rooster. fighting cocks are not bread for any other reason than to win matches. i have'nt seen the queen knife but i'm sure it's high quality. i personally have never seen one at a cock fight, but i have'nt seen a lot of things. does queen tout this as a cock spur or is it a marketing ploy?
btw, you have some mighty nice peices on your site.

tell me more.

johnnie
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CCBill
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Post by CCBill »

Just for the record. Cock fighting is illegal in most states(Texas is one of them). It'a little too barbaric for me, though not as much as the dog fights(also illegal in Texas).
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knifeswapper
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Post by knifeswapper »

jonet, I really don't know if this was a gimmic or not.

We too were a motley group of creatures a couple hundred years ago; killing the people that lived here before us and treating them like animals. Not to mention the ones we shipped in to do our work for us. Times change and things that were once acceptable no longer are; I don't hold this against people or think ill of them. They were/are living in different conditions that I am not so arrogant as to even act like I understand. Just try to live by a set of principles put forth in a book that pre-dates us or this country.

Back to this spur saw....
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jonet143
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Post by jonet143 »

i'm sorry, i meant nothing toward you or your beliefs. i am wondering if queens marketers are trying to sell these particular knives as cock spur trimming knives. if so, i believe it's wrong to romantacize an ilegal and cruel sport.
i think the knives are cool, but i don't think the original ones were built for that purpose. jmo
you sell queen products, i thought you were maybe privy to a broshure about them. your version does'nt sound like what i witnessed.

johnnie
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knifeswapper
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Post by knifeswapper »

jonet, please don't interpret anything I say as a sign that I am offended ; or more importantly signaling my actual attitude towards cockfighting itself. It is an illegal activity that most definitely involves many unsavory folks (generally it is not upstanding people willing to break the law without regard of any fashion). Although when the knives were being produced there were many places where it was not illegal; still not in New Mexico and Louisianna. Actually still a huge "sport", as in colliseums, in Mexico and the Philipines.

I doubt the knife was originally made for sawing spurs before fighting; more likely an existing model found useful for such. Although I have never heard for sure where cockfighting originated, but it pre-dates America; so who knows.

Not for nothing though; I would rather live on a barnyard (or in a pen by myself) and be taken care of for two years then given some chance to fight for my right to be placed with a bunch of hens, as opposed to shoved in a 2 foot square pen with 10 other chickens until I was 10 weeks old then have my head ripped off to satisfy a KFC customer :mrgreen:

Maybe someone will come along that knows what the original model was made (and when). All I can confirm is the speculation that it was marketed as a spur saw by at least the salesman level.
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jonet143
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Post by jonet143 »

hey mike, cool.

johnnie
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Re: nice piece

Post by smiling-knife »

Kiferbros wrote: but did any manufacturer ever make this type of knife for public sale? or is a spur saw knife a newer concept of a knife that was never actually produced for the general public?
This doesn't really address the cock-spur question per se, but knives with this type saw attachement are not at all new. Many Sheffield companies produced multi-blade knives with this very type of saw. A photo of a Horseman's knife from the early 1800s has a saw like this along with several blades, a glove hook, a corkscrew, a hoof-pick and a file. These knives were widely advertised to the general public. An ad for Unwin Rodgers c1850 has a knife with 2 blades, this type of saw, fleams for bleeding, lancets, pointy auger and needle type attachements, a hook, etc. This is clearly a vetenarian or farmer's knife and the saw likely used for amputations or what ever else required it. e.g., maybe sawing horns or hoofs. It seems this attachment has a long history with knives associated with animals in general. At what point, if ever, it was produced for the specific market of game cock owners I could not speculate. Thanks for posting this. I always enjoy an opportunity to do a little research and learn about all sorts of knives. :) s-k
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Kiferbros
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OK descision is in

Post by Kiferbros »

OK a few manufacturers did make a pocket knife with a saw blade. it's original use is still undetermined but they were made. If looking to purchase one, do so at your own risk(as always) if you don't take the time to ask more informed people. This would be considered a rare knife in any scense of the word and the con artists know this and prey on the uniformed so buyer beware.
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jonet143
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cock spur knives

Post by jonet143 »

i've been researching and found no "official" reference to the knives having been built for that purpose.
however i did come across this picture of a knife distributed by smokey mountain knife works. pretty interesting. someone there thought it suited the job.

ps, thanks to bryan for helping with the picture.
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johnnie f 1949

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Re: spur saw knife

Post by Bigtyny »

Does anybody still make them I raise gamefowl for show at poultry shows and we have to cut spurs off or they can hurt the judge or somebody I have to cut there spurs off before breeding they can hurt and kill hen these were made for vets before they were used by poultry raisers a lot of poultry have spur the males are called cockerels cock for short
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Re: spur saw knife

Post by jerryd6818 »

I don't know the answer to your question but I would like to welcome you to AAPK. Glad to have you aboard.
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