2 Robeson "Scout" Knives

The first Robeson knives were imported by Millard Robeson from England and Germany exclusively. This continued from 1979 until 1896 when Robeson began manufacturing knives in the United States. Since inception, the company has gone through several reorganizations & eventually ended up as a Queen Cutlery brand.
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kootenay joe
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2 Robeson "Scout" Knives

Post by kootenay joe »

Here are 2 3 5/8" Robeson Shuredge 4 blade Utility knives with a shield that has "SCOUT" on it. One is missing the bail. Back of master blades both have: 642214; both awls are marked: Pat AFR/25-05; both screwdrivers have arched: Robeson/USA/Cutlery.
What is interesting is one major difference despite the same pattern number. The knife missing the bail has a short master but the nail nick is not affected and it is on the back side of the blade; i.e. a "leftie".
Perhaps this is well known among the Robesonites, but it's new to me.
What about age ? At some time in 1930's ? the BSA won the exclusive right to the word "Scout" so knives made after this date could no longer have "SCOUT" on the shield. Anyone know what year this was ?
kj
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Re: 2 Robeson "Scout" Knives

Post by RobesonsRme.com »

Roland, other than saying they predate WWII, I cannot come much closer on a date.

I have no knowledge re' the BSA acquiring a copyright to the word, "SCOUT". Others will have to offer up some info on that.

I can say that I have never seen a Robeson 214 with a master blade that heavy.

And the date on the punch should read PAT APR 25 05, as in April 25, 1905.

I forget the maximum time one is allowed to maintain their patent rights, but knowing that might aid in establishing a date range.

Nice knives.

Charlie
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Re: 2 Robeson "Scout" Knives

Post by bestgear »

Roland - Here's the list of the Boy Scouts of America Trademarks: http://www.scouting.org/licensing/Prote ... sting.aspx

and "Scout" is not one of them although the disclaimer says that the list, although not exhaustive, includes the most common proprietary marks, words, and phrases of the Boy Scouts of America.

Hope that helps. BTW - Nice knives!
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Re: 2 Robeson "Scout" Knives

Post by kootenay joe »

Hmmm, interesting that 'no one' here has heard of the restriction on using the word "Scout".
I read this years ago concerning Adolph Kastor importing 4 blade Utilities from Germany with a shield saying "Scout". It was stated that this ban on unofficial use of "Scout" applied to import & domestic knives.
"Scout" on a shield is seen with a few USA brands including the Camillus made Sta-Sharp. But all these knives are 'older'. You never see it on a post WW II knife so i think the info on copyright restriction of "Scout" to official BSA knives is likely correct.
However, with out resident Scout knife 'expert' unaware of it does cast some legitimate doubt.
kj
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Re: 2 Robeson "Scout" Knives

Post by kootenay joe »

Quote Charlie: "I can say that I have never seen a Robeson 214 with a master blade that heavy."
Both master blades have been buffed such that the Robeson Shuredge(in script) marking has been partially removed but it still looks correct, as does the 642214 on the backside.
Neither knife looks to have been apart.
The master blade on knife with a bail is not 'heavy' as in wide(deep) or thick. The master on the knife lacking a bail is definitely 'deeper', meaning span from spine to edge, and the nail nick is on the back side of the blade, same side as pattern number.
Yet it does NOT look like a replacement. It lines up perfectly with it's spring and knife does not look like it has ever been apart but it has been buffed which can remove signs of tinkering.
So, how to explain this Robeson Utility with a heavier Master blade with nail nick on back side ? This question is why i posted these 2 knives.
Thanks for any further help you can provide.
kj
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Re: 2 Robeson "Scout" Knives

Post by peanut740 »

Roland, I believe it is the combination of the words"Boy Scout"not Scout that was disputed.
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Re: 2 Robeson "Scout" Knives

Post by bestgear »

Roland - You may be thinking of the case of Adolph Kastor vs. The Federal Trade Commission which forbade Adolph Kastor to use the words, "Scout," "Boy Scout," or "Scouting," in connection with, any knives made or sold by it. Here's the story as I know it after doing some research overnight:

The Kastor Company had been making and selling cutlery since 1879; and the subject of this controversy is a "Scout Set," comprising a three-bladed "Scout Knife," and a "Sportsman's Knife," sold together in a box, for fifty cents. The "Scout Knife" had one large cutting blade, a can opener, and a combination screw driver and bottle opener; the "Sportsman's Knife" was a hunting knife with one large blade and a bone handle. On the cover of the cardboard box it used to print the words, "Scouting Set," with the picture of a tent, a campfire, and boys in "Boy Scout's" uniform. Kastor also made a four-bladed "Scout Knife" with a leather punch. Kastor argued that it had begun selling a similar "German Army" knife, marked "Scout Knife," as early as 1895 like the present "Scout Knife"; and that before 1910 it had also imported from England hatchets and knives with the words, "Boy Scout," on the blades. The FTC found that before 1910 "there had been no pocket knife on the market marked with the word `Scout'".

The Boy Scouts of America is a corporation organized under the laws of the District of Columbia on February 8, 1910; its general activities are so well known that it is scarcely necessary to describe them in detail. When the suit was filed, a two-bladed knife costing $1.50, which used the legend, "Official Knife — Boy Scouts of America," the insignia of the organization, and the motto — "Be Prepared" was sold with BSA's consent. On the handle of these there is a shield which also carried the insignia, and on the box in which it is sold the insignia appear. No knives sold with its consent — no "official knives" — bear merely the words, "Scout," or "Boy Scout." The FTC found, that "even before the incorporation of the Boy Scouts of America, the words `Scout' and `Scouting' had acquired a secondary meaning as applying to the Boy Scout movement." There was adequate support for that conclusion in the testimony of persons who were in a position to know the public mind, and whom the FTC credited. Indeed, the Commissioner of Patents refused to register the name, "Winchester Scout" as a trade-mark for pocket knives upon the opposition of the Boy Scouts of America. The FTC believed that the word, "Scout," when applied to a boy's pocket knife, suggests, if indeed it does not actually indicate, that the knife is in some way sponsored by the Boy Scouts of America. It is true that this suggestion is vague; it does not mean that the Boy Scouts sell the knife, and would be misleading if it did, for they sell no knives of any kind.

The Court indicated that the knives have the countenance of the organization, either by being licensed as an "official knife," or by having some less explicit recognition and that as matter of law under the circumstances. In cases of trade-mark the right test is to compare what prejudice it will impose upon an infringer to avoid infringing, and what will be the damage to the "owner" of the mark, if the infringer persists. In this case, The Kastor Company is using a word of common speech, which all are entitled to use; for this reason the Court agreed that it may demanded that the Boy Scouts show some superior interest. The Kastor Company did not assert that the word, "Scout," on a pocket knife means anything of the sort; and no such assertion could be sustained, and there was no evidence in the record to sustain it. Therefore, the Court's decision turned to whether the suggestion from the name, "Scout," of a boy's pocket knife that the Boy Scouts of America sponsor it as proper for Boy Scouts, is enough to support the FTC order.

The Court stated that the Boy Scouts have a cognizable interest in preventing such possible confusion. It is not even necessary that the label shall lead "boy scouts" to buy Kastor knives supposing that they are "Official Knives"; boys who are not "Scouts" may be led to buy them because in their minds they vaguely have the imprimatur of the Boy Scouts of America. That interest the law will protect against an opposing interest no greater that that of all persons in the use of common speech. We have again and again decided, in cases where a merchant's mark has been used upon goods which he does not in fact sell, but may be thought to be selling, that he may stop the use. No one need expose his reputation to the trade practices of another, even though he can show no pecuniary loss. The Boy Scouts of America have a legal grievance if anyone buys the fifty cent knife supposing that it has their approval. The Kastor Company is in a dilemma: either its knives will sell as well under some other name, or the name, "Scout," gives them an advantage to the prejudice of the Boy Scouts.

The Court affirmed the FTC order and Kastor had to cease using "Scout" on it's shields. The Court stated that it did not rely on section 7 of the Act of Congress of June 15, 1916, 36 U.S.C.A. § 27 because the validity of that section had not been argued before them and because there might be some question whether the word, "Scout," taken by itself, was within the clause "words or phrases used by the Boy Scouts of America in carrying out its program. True, it is a part of "words or phrases" so used; but whether the statute meant to go so far as to protect a single word broken from its context, might be open to debate. Moreover, the FTC did not appear to have relied upon the statute in making its order.
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Re: 2 Robeson "Scout" Knives

Post by RobesonsRme.com »

Roland, my comment about that larger than usual blade was in no way meant to imply it was a replacement. I have no doubt the knife left the Perry factory with that blade in in it.

Charlie
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Re: 2 Robeson "Scout" Knives

Post by kootenay joe »

Tom, thank you ! that is the decision i was speaking of. Do you have the year of this court ruling upholding the FTC ruling ?
As i understand this, although the ruling applied to Kastor's import knives, USA knife manufacturers also stopped putting "Scout" on a shield or blade.

Charlie, a replaced blade would be the simplest explanation but the evidence seems lacking.
Do you think Robeson had a request for some left hand opening Scout knives ? Then perhaps the only blade they had with a nail nick on the opposite side was a wider blade and they installed that one.
If this is true, there must be other 214 knives out there with a wide master blade nail nicked on the backside.
But it seems like no one here has ever seen one ?
kj
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Re: 2 Robeson "Scout" Knives

Post by bestgear »

I believe it was 1943 Roland.
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Re: 2 Robeson "Scout" Knives

Post by Miller Bro's »

kootenay joe wrote:If this is true, there must be other 214 knives out there with a wide master blade nail nicked on the backside.
But it seems like no one here has ever seen one ?
kj
I think I may have one like that Roland, but finding it is another story! ::doh::
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Re: 2 Robeson "Scout" Knives

Post by RobesonsRme.com »

Roland, I cannot comment on why they made the knife the way they did,as it's the only one I've ever seen with that fat blade.

And I don't necessarily think that a knife with the pull on the pile side of the blade makes it a left-handed knife.

I have several Robeson multiblades that have the master pull on the pile side, but I think it was done for accessibility purposes, not because they were trying to market the knife to sinister patrons. :wink:

Charlie
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"...Men may spurn our appeals, reject our message, oppose our arguments, despise our persons ___but they are helpless against our prayers. "

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