Firearms...Pay Attention To Those Around You!

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KLJ77
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Firearms...Pay Attention To Those Around You!

Post by KLJ77 »

Saw this story forum and thought I’d provide a true story of an incident that almost took my life during my Navy career as a Firearms Instructor.

In 1994, I was given the opportunity to attend Instructor school for four weeks, and then move on to my ‘twilight’ tour for my last four years in the Navy. I eventually ended up at Little Creek Amphibious Base, Little Creek, Virginia as a Firearms Instructor. My first three months at this new Command had me learning the ropes and criteria of Instructorship. I attended another four weeks of firearms training (The Navy’s Firearms & Marksmanship Course, better known as “SAMI” Small Arms Marksmanship Instructor-NEC 0812) that involved the use and break-down and assembly of the now obsolete .38 Cal. Pistol, the Colt .45 Cal. Pistol, Beretta 92F 9MM, M-16 rifle and the 870 Remington Pump-action Shotgun. This was a particular intensive course, for one had to qualify and score high with each weapon they were going to instruct students on the use of, involving firearms nomenclature, firearm fundamentals, safety aspects and the assembly / disassembly and handling of each weapon.

That’s a bit of background to my schooling.

There were eight instructors total, from Second Class Petty officers to Chief Petty Officers. My rating was MAC, which is a Master-At-Arms Chief Petty Officer at the time. There was also an Officer who was in charge of our group…a Lieutenant and a civilian administrator and one other civilian instructor.

We taught two different courses; 1) A Shipboard Security Engagement Team (SSET) course, which utilized paintball guns to simulate actual gunfire. This was a very aggressive week long course we taught to shipboard sailors so they would be able to defend their ship if an intruder got on board. The GREATEST learning curve in this course was ‘live fire day’, which pitted the instructors against the shipboard teams. As mentioned, we used paintball guns…and if you’ve never been hit with a 400 FPS paintball at close range (40 feet or less, but no less than 10 feet) then you have no idea just how painful those little paintballs can be, especially during cold weather. For the first three months of being an instructor for this course, I would go home at the end of each course with no less than 12-15 paintball bruises all over my body. Yes…I had to learn how to control my stress level, the adrenaline coursing through one’s body and contend with tunnel vision, and not panic when five team members where coming at you all at the same time. Dealing with these things was not an automatic given, for one had to learn to overcome these physical aspects to become proficient as an instructor. Needless to say, I learned a lot about myself, tactics and how to perform under stress.

Moving on to the gist of the story.

2) The second course we taught involved the .45 pistol…and eventually, the 9MM Beretta 92F and the Rem. Shotgun. This course was an advanced firearms training course where the students were “supposed” to be vetted by their Command prior to attending. Vetting entailed each member having been pre-qualified on the above weapons by their command and being documented and signed off as being eligible to attend this course. However, many Commands would ‘fudge’ or what we would call, “paper-punch” (with a pen) someone’s quals just to get personnel qualified on paper to attend our course. We took their documentation and word at face value…(a mistake on our part) trusting that they were actually sending us appropriately qualified personnel. However, it was this shirking of one’s responsibility and job at their Command that almost got me killed.

At the time, we were using the Colt .45 pistol for our course. For those who are not familiar with the .45, it has four main safeties…the manual safety, half-cock safety, grip safety and of course…the person handling the weapon itself. We would conduct 16 hours of in classroom instruction prior to going to the range for live fire, stressing safety, safety, safety, nomenclature of the the .45, the course of instruction and what they could anticipate on the range. We constantly stressed the four main firearms safety protocols. But alas, this only works if one has a strong grasp on firearms, are confident in their abilities and they are always focused on what they were doing and what they needed to do to keep them and others safe. Every morning at the range, we would reiterate safety and go over all the range rules to ensure everyone understood. At the beginning of each and every course, on the first day, the first hour, we would ask the entire class if there was anyone there who DID NOT want to be there and did not want to go through the course. No one ever raised their hand to leave.

On the particular day that could have very well been my last, I was instructing a young man during a course of fire where we had six lanes set up with various courses of fire that required 18 rounds each. Each magazine was loaded with six rounds. Each lane was set up for a particular stage of the course, so that on the last day, we would combine all the stages together where the students would fire a total of 32 rounds during their final evaluation…and they had two minutes to complete the course of fire, and they had to meet a specific number of ‘hits’ to each target…or fail. Again, this was a very intensive live fire combat course that involved running 30 yards, approaching a stage, pick up the weapon, load it and engage specific targets. An instructor would then take the weapon from the student and they would move on to the next stage, pick up the weapon, load and engage...for a total of six stages.

The ratio of student to instructor was one-on-one on the range. As an instructor, one of the most important responsibilities we had was; to NEVER take your eyes off the student or become complacent, no matter how good they were or how experienced. We would stand close to the student on the side they were shooting with, and we would have both hands up toward the arms of the student so that we could ‘grab’ the weapon at any moment if we saw them do something unsafe. It happened a lot. The young man on my stage that day kept having issues with the weapon not firing. I sensed he was nervous, which piqued red flags for me, so my focus became even more intense on this young man. I continued to observe his shooting platform to see if I could discover what he was doing wrong, because his weapon should not have been ‘not firing’ as often as it was. After several more rounds, I realized what he was doing wrong. He was not griping the .45 properly and not pressing the web of his hand into the grip safety hard enough to disengage the sear so that the weapon would fire. Thus, every time he would squeeze the trigger, the muzzle would immediately drop down due to him anticipating the shot. We stopped, I took the weapon from him and provided on the spot reiteration about the grip safety and the application it required to shoot the weapon. After about five minutes, he said he understood, but it did not alleviate my concerns about him and my gut feeling that “something” was not right. I remember thinking; “focus on him, LJ…focus on him”. We got back into live fire mode and he fired three rounds…and then, when he tried to fire the fourth round, once again, he didn’t have the grip safety depressed enough. And then it happened…and it happened so fast, that if I hadn’t been focused and paying attention, I would have ended up with a .45 round through the left side of my cheek and up through my head. I would have been dead before I hit the ground.

What this young man did was; when the weapon didn’t fire, it was as though he forgot all about safety, what he was taught and just became brain dead to what he was supposed to do. He was so perplexed about the weapon not firing that he turned the .45 directly toward me. I saw the muzzle coming at me…all in slow motion. I grabbed his right arm to keep him from turning any further toward me and stepped back one step with my left foot and leaned my body backwards. Just as I did that…wouldn’t you know, with his finger still on the trigger, he depressed the grip safety and squeezed the trigger. I felt the round go over the top of my head. Had I not pushed his arm and stepped back a foot…well, not to over dramatize this anymore…I wouldn’t be here. I immediately grabbed his weapon, where he still had his finger on the trigger, placed my right thumb between the cocked hammer and slide so that it would not fire if he pulled the trigger again, but would only fall on my thumb. I took my left hand and wrenched the weapon out of his hands and told him to “get the hell off my range” and I called a ‘cease fire’ for the entire range. Yeah…I was pretty upset over this. This incident happened in a matter of seconds…it was that fast. And that’s how fast something could go wrong on a live fire range.

After briefing the RSO (Range Safety Officer) of what happened, I requested he go talk to the young man to find out what was going on in his head. He was on the benches crying, frustrated, shaking and scared. After the RSO talked with him, that’s when we found out that this young man had NEVER picked up a gun in his life, didn’t like guns, was scared of them and didn’t even want to come to our course. We asked him; “then why did you come…and why didn’t you say something the first day of the course?” He told us he was awakened that morning at 0530 and told to get up, you’re going to a weapons course. He was “just a body” to fill a quota the ship needed to fill. This young man, who was totally innocent, was just doing what he was told, and was too scared to say anything else. Needless to say, our LT sent a very angry letter to the Commanding Officer of the ship, addressing the lack of protocols, safety requirements, qualifications, etc., etc. Heads rolled for sandbagging this young man’s alleged quals. After this incident, my Command also enhanced more intense vetting measures to ensure we only received specific qualified students with qualifications placed into a system where we could actually verify and not just receive a piece of paper at face value.

That’s my story…I hope I was not overly long winded in writing this and didn’t bore you to death. Just one of those very memorable exciting days during my 20 year tenure in the Navy.

Thanks for reading…hope you enjoyed.
LJ

"The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are now outnumbered by those that vote for a living."
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Re: Firearms...Pay Attention To Those Around You!

Post by Steve Warden »

Cool story, LJ. Thanks for sharing!
Glad your able to tell it. ::tu::
Take care and God bless,

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Post by Paladin »

Good job and well done. Thank you for your service to our country. ::handshake::

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Post by jerryd6818 »

Thus the brown spot in your skivvies.
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Post by fergusontd »

::facepalm:: Alot of people are getting on the concealed carry bandwagon, who have absolutely no business in doing so. It's scary to think that these idiotic people have absolutely no training or at the least the bare minimum. It's a huge responsibility not to be taken lightly and most people would be to scared to react in a real situation. It's my opnion that teachers should not carry in a school or people just bragging I can carry a gun. ftd
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Post by Gunsil »

Surprised you didn't lose an eardrum with a .45 going off so close to your head. I had a friend who was a cop and when his department went to 9mm semi-autos from revolvers the nut tried quick draw with the 9mm and promptly shot himself in the foot. He had been a cop for several years and had attended several firearm courses when he pulled that stunt.
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Post by Mumbleypeg »

Around here I’m way more concerned about the average Joe or Jane carrying than I am a teacher. The teachers who carry at school (not every school district allows it but many do) first have to volunteer for it, then have to take and pass some fairly extensive training, not unlike what was described here by KLJ. A lot more than just standing at a range and shooting at targets.

Thanks for the story KLJ, and thanks for your service. Glad you’re here to share it.

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Post by Sharpnshinyknives »

LJ, Interesting story of a near death experience, which is what that was. I appreciate the work you did to train those men to be warriors and the risks that involved to you personally.
People that take firearms lightly, like this young man did, are dangerous to be around. We had a little boy from my former church I pastored who was shot by a drunken man who had been out shooting his rifle that day w/ the family of the boy he shot. For some completely unknown reason when he was putting the rifle back in the case he pointed it out away from himself to clear the chamber but was carelessly pointing the rifle right at the 10 year old boy. Of course the gun went off and the bullet tore through his left rib cage and took out his lung and heart. His last words were, “I can’t believe he shot me”.
That little boy came to church early every Sunday to help me hand out bulletins and open the door to let people in. He was the sweetest kid I think I have ever known. What a tragedy that was, it was completely avoidable. A drunken man shouldn’t be out shooting a gun in the first place. But drunken and around children w/ a firearm is a deadly combination. So much fault to go around on this tragedy.
When you are around people who treat firearms lightly or carelessly, leave the situation.
LJ I’m glad your story ended the way it did. Having seen the results of someone else’s carelessness, I can say you were lucky or the Lord was looking out for you, either way I’m glad you are here.
SSk Mark “Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same.” Ronald Reagan
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Post by Quick Steel »

Outside of military events, I've twice had a loaded gun pointed at me. At a private range a young man came over to me to ask help in operating his pistol. He had never had instruction and never fired a pistol before. The only problem was that he was holding his loaded gun pointed directly at my chest. I think I scared him a bit with the intensity of my instructions on safety.

The second incident was less forgivable. A police officer wanted to show me his back up pistol. He drew it out, started talking about it all the while with the barrel pointed at me. I stepped aside and pointed out what he was doing. His response was to tell me the gun was empty. Every gun is a loaded gun, but I guess he missed that class.

Mark, that is such a sad, tragic, incident. May his family have peace.
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Post by herbva »

Wow, incredible story! I'm glad that you are still with us and thanks for sharing!
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Post by kentucky.2006 »

Thanks for the post LJ

Jan
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Post by KLJ77 »

Thank you all for your comments, insight and sharing. I appreciate your thoughts and input.

Jerry - Yes Sir...the skivvies were framed, unwashed to ensure authenticity. :lol: ::tu::

FTD - You're exactly right about many people who shouldn't own firearms. It seems as though, anymore, those teaching CC classes are in it for the money and they shove people through in 16 hour course of instruction. That is no where nearly enough instruction time for someone who has never owned a firearm. With owning a firearm, it comes with great responsibility and accountability. If one needs to use it, they better know what they're doing and know and understand the consequences of its use. I'm not so much against teachers being able to carry firearms...my greatest concern is if they are being properly trained in its use and the psychological aspects that go along with the training. I would advocate no less than a two week course of instruction for every teacher, with a very strong testing process for passing. (written and live fire)

Gunsil - We wore hearing and eye protection at all times when the range was 'hot'. We wore Peltor's, which were a noise reduction style of hearing protection. We could talk to other instructors while they were on, but they would block out all the loud reports from shots fired.

Ken - I agree 100%...training should be extensive. It's one thing to punch holes in paper that doesn't shoot back, it's another thing to control the stress and that chemical cocktail of adrenaline rush when you know someone could or is shooting back. Go to any range and watch the young kids today...and even some older adults, and you can pick out the 'chest-thumpers', the 'bravado attitudes', over zealous egos, and those who don't follow safety guidelines. Those are the kind of people I stay away from at the range. If I see them, I leave...I refuse to be a statistic because of stupidity from others.

SSK - My heart goes out to the family who lost their young boy because of senseless act due to lack of safety. I can only hope the man who was responsible asked for forgiveness, forgave himself and allowed this unfortunate incident to help him change for the better. Alcohol is one of the worst ingredients a person can add to the use of a firearm...these two NEVER becomes a good mixture. Thanks for sharing your insight and story. I can't imagine what it took for you to contend with this situation.

QS - I commented about this very situation in my response to Ken. If I go to an outdoor range, I always observe the shooting lanes and people there before I commit to taking an assigned lane. If I don't like what I see, or there is any blatant safety issues going on and the Range Master is not taking action...I will leave, even after bringing the violations to the RM's attention. It's just not worth it. Indoor ranges are a bit better, but still, one has to be 'aware' of what is going on. As a side-note: I have enjoyed reading your Vietnam stories and experiences. Thank you for your willingness to share your experiences, albeit, some that are bittersweet...and I'm sure, somewhat hard to recall and put to pen.
LJ

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Post by Quick Steel »

Thank you for your kind remarks LJ.
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Post by Doc B »

Glad you survived that encounter. I'm sure your story helped many, after that, increase their focus, on the serious nature of picking up a gun. Thanks for tuning our focus!!!
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Post by Byrd »

What a story! I'm glad no one was hurt! I served as a RO at our clubs range for a while a few years ago and can attest to the fact that not everyone should own a gun. I think that anyone who's been around guns long enough can tell stories of what stupid people have done with guns.
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Post by zzyzzogeton »

LJ -

I remember watching a portion of that course or at least one similar to it. For my last active duty ship in the late 80s, I was assigned to an AO out of Norfolk. As Navigator/First Lieutenant/Admin Officer (yes, one of those stupid "minimum manning concept" ships where Department Heads and nearly everyone else wore multiple hats). My training consisted of spending 2 days at Little Creek qualifying on 1911s, M14s and Shotguns and one day "observing" what real self defense teams did. ::doh::

Since the 3rd Division (Gunnery Division) was under me, and as Navigator/Admin Officer, I had the least important GQ billet (OOD underway), and the Co was always on the bridge for GQ and the XO was in CIC one deck below, it was determined that I should be in charge of our "Ship's Self Defense Force" for our upcoming deployment. The ship had never had a "real" self defense force prior to the new XO and I arriving aboard the same day. I guess in truth, we didn't have one after I got there either. :shock:

To call our 3rd Division a real "Gunnery Division" was in a way, a joke. We had 4 50 cal machine guns that could be mounted on 4 swivels on the gunwales at the "corners". We also had 2 M60s, 8 1911s, 6 Remington Shotguns and 6 M14s. That's right - even though the military, including the Navy, had shifted to 92Ms and M16s, my poor little oiler still had 45s and M14s. Oh, yeah, we had 4 "line throwing guns", M14s fitted with the M87 adapter. I guess we could have shot the rubber line spools at people.

We only had 3 GMs. Other than our GM1, no one on our team was ever able to go the training you taught. Part of that was we had no one to spare to go to the classes. Our Postal Clerk, a PC3, also stood watched as our BTOW down in the main spaces. I had a PN3 who was a qualified line throwing gun shooter - we didn't have enough GMs to man 2 stations on each side of the ship during major unrep evolutions.

The Little Creek class didn't cover M60s, so I had to go over to one of the LPDs in port and get trained on it by the E6 (Staff SGT) Marine assigned as MC Liaison. I fired it 1x while underway in the 19 months I was on the ship/team. Our GM1 and I were assigned to handle the M60s as we were the only 2 people the CO/XO would trust them with.

The GM1 and I built our team around a questionnaire I developed and a personal interview with each "candidate". The questionnaire asked the candidate to list all weapons they had ever fired, when thay had fired them and how many times they had done so. It was shocking to this Texas farm boy to find out that 90% of the crew and 70% of the officers had never fired a weapon except for "famfire" at boot camp or for annual "famfire" trainng to be an inport POOW.

When ever we "trained" for defense scenarios, the weapons were issued ONLY with EMPTY magazines. Real bullets never left the armory. The GM1 and I didn't trust our people to give them real bullets, even a singlton like Barney Fife carried.

I routinely reported to the CO and XO that if we were ever attacked, we were all gonna die.
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Post by KLJ77 »

Thanks, Doc B and Byrd. ::handshake::

Doc...if my story helps others to revisit weapons handling safety, then that's a plus. I don't shoot as much today as I used to, but one thing I do is; I 'mental practice' the basic fundamentals of firearms safety, always keeping them at the forefront of my mind whenever I pick up my weapons to clean them or prep them for transport to the range. Everyone should do that and never become complacent. Now I'm preaching...so I'll shut up. I don't want to insult anyone's intelligence. ::paranoid::

Byrd...Yes Sir, there are many out there who seem to go brain dead when handling guns. I've thrown many students and people off my range during live fire, indoor and outdoor, because they thought it would be cool to 'horseplay' around, or they would turn around with a fully loaded weapon instead of keeping their weapon pointed downrange, consistently continue to fire rounds off when the 'cease fire' was given. I was called many names for being too harsh and compliant when it came to safety...but I never apologized for it. I've had numerous 'close calls', but I never had a death or injury...well, other than the shooters who couldn't seem to get their off hand thumb out of the way of the slide because their grip was wrong. :roll:
LJ

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Post by KLJ77 »

zzyzzogeton wrote: Fri May 15, 2020 6:07 pm LJ -

I remember watching a portion of that course or at least one similar to it. For my last active duty ship in the late 80s, I was assigned to an AO out of Norfolk. As Navigator/First Lieutenant/Admin Officer (yes, one of those stupid "minimum manning concept" ships where Department Heads and nearly everyone else wore multiple hats). My training consisted of spending 2 days at Little Creek qualifying on 1911s, M14s and Shotguns and one day "observing" what real self defense teams did. ::doh::

Since the 3rd Division (Gunnery Division) was under me, and as Navigator/Admin Officer, I had the least important GQ billet (OOD underway), and the Co was always on the bridge for GQ and the XO was in CIC one deck below, it was determined that I should be in charge of our "Ship's Self Defense Force" for our upcoming deployment. The ship had never had a "real" self defense force prior to the new XO and I arriving aboard the same day. I guess in truth, we didn't have one after I got there either. :shock:

To call our 3rd Division a real "Gunnery Division" was in a way, a joke. We had 4 50 cal machine guns that could be mounted on 4 swivels on the gunwales at the "corners". We also had 2 M60s, 8 1911s, 6 Remington Shotguns and 6 M14s. That's right - even though the military, including the Navy, had shifted to 92Ms and M16s, my poor little oiler still had 45s and M14s. Oh, yeah, we had 4 "line throwing guns", M14s fitted with the M87 adapter. I guess we could have shot the rubber line spools at people.

We only had 3 GMs. Other than our GM1, no one on our team was ever able to go the training you taught. Part of that was we had no one to spare to go to the classes. Our Postal Clerk, a PC3, also stood watched as our BTOW down in the main spaces. I had a PN3 who was a qualified line throwing gun shooter - we didn't have enough GMs to man 2 stations on each side of the ship during major unrep evolutions.

The Little Creek class didn't cover M60s, so I had to go over to one of the LPDs in port and get trained on it by the E6 (Staff SGT) Marine assigned as MC Liaison. I fired it 1x while underway in the 19 months I was on the ship/team. Our GM1 and I were assigned to handle the M60s as we were the only 2 people the CO/XO would trust them with.

The GM1 and I built our team around a questionnaire I developed and a personal interview with each "candidate". The questionnaire asked the candidate to list all weapons they had ever fired, when thay had fired them and how many times they had done so. It was shocking to this Texas farm boy to find out that 90% of the crew and 70% of the officers had never fired a weapon except for "famfire" at boot camp or for annual "famfire" trainng to be an inport POOW.

When ever we "trained" for defense scenarios, the weapons were issued ONLY with EMPTY magazines. Real bullets never left the armory. The GM1 and I didn't trust our people to give them real bullets, even a singlton like Barney Fife carried.

I routinely reported to the CO and XO that if we were ever attacked, we were all gonna die.
ZZ - I fully understand your frustration you had to contend with. That was a time where very few CO's or XO's wanted to 'risk' an incident and ruin their careers. It was kind of a 'catch-22' if you will. Nevertheless, your mind and heart was in the right place. Reading about your experience, I know you would have thoroughly enjoyed both courses we taught. It would have been an honor to have been able to have a team from your Command go through the course. ::tu:: ::handshake:: The M-60 was an awesome weapon to shoot. I really enjoyed the opportunities I had. And then...along came the M240B, the lighter weight version of the M-60 with the detachable barrel carry handle. I was able to be chosen by my command to attend a two week course using the M240B. It was taught by four Navy SEALS and included three days of going out on speed boats, attaching the 240 to a weapons stanchion and learning how to accurately fire at orange surface buoys while turning, high speed and in choppy waters. Now THAT was one of my best experiences as a Range Officer.
LJ

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Post by tongueriver »

Anyone who is involved with defensive firearms, carry or otherwise, NEEDS to read at least one of the books on the subject by Massad Ayoob, the acknowledged most knowledgeable man in the world on the subject. No matter what you know now, you will get an eye-opener or twelve. Required reading.
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Re: Firearms...Pay Attention To Those Around You!

Post by KLJ77 »

TongueRiver,

You are on point 110%. Massad Ayoob has some awesome training criteria. I've read numerous books of his and watched many more videos regarding his expertise. Thanks for making this post about him. One will never go wrong with his instruction. ::tu::
LJ

"The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are now outnumbered by those that vote for a living."
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Quick Steel
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Re: Firearms...Pay Attention To Those Around You!

Post by Quick Steel »

tongueriver you are so right. Massad Ayoob is my gun guru.
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FRJ
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Re: Firearms...Pay Attention To Those Around You!

Post by FRJ »

Here's one.
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Re: Firearms...Pay Attention To Those Around You!

Post by tongueriver »

Of possible interest.

https://armedcitizensnetwork.org/
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