Firearms...Pay Attention To Those Around You!

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zzyzzogeton
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Re: Firearms...Pay Attention To Those Around You!

Post by zzyzzogeton »

LJ -

I remember watching a portion of that course or at least one similar to it. For my last active duty ship in the late 80s, I was assigned to an AO out of Norfolk. As Navigator/First Lieutenant/Admin Officer (yes, one of those stupid "minimum manning concept" ships where Department Heads and nearly everyone else wore multiple hats). My training consisted of spending 2 days at Little Creek qualifying on 1911s, M14s and Shotguns and one day "observing" what real self defense teams did. ::doh::

Since the 3rd Division (Gunnery Division) was under me, and as Navigator/Admin Officer, I had the least important GQ billet (OOD underway), and the Co was always on the bridge for GQ and the XO was in CIC one deck below, it was determined that I should be in charge of our "Ship's Self Defense Force" for our upcoming deployment. The ship had never had a "real" self defense force prior to the new XO and I arriving aboard the same day. I guess in truth, we didn't have one after I got there either. :shock:

To call our 3rd Division a real "Gunnery Division" was in a way, a joke. We had 4 50 cal machine guns that could be mounted on 4 swivels on the gunwales at the "corners". We also had 2 M60s, 8 1911s, 6 Remington Shotguns and 6 M14s. That's right - even though the military, including the Navy, had shifted to 92Ms and M16s, my poor little oiler still had 45s and M14s. Oh, yeah, we had 4 "line throwing guns", M14s fitted with the M87 adapter. I guess we could have shot the rubber line spools at people.

We only had 3 GMs. Other than our GM1, no one on our team was ever able to go the training you taught. Part of that was we had no one to spare to go to the classes. Our Postal Clerk, a PC3, also stood watched as our BTOW down in the main spaces. I had a PN3 who was a qualified line throwing gun shooter - we didn't have enough GMs to man 2 stations on each side of the ship during major unrep evolutions.

The Little Creek class didn't cover M60s, so I had to go over to one of the LPDs in port and get trained on it by the E6 (Staff SGT) Marine assigned as MC Liaison. I fired it 1x while underway in the 19 months I was on the ship/team. Our GM1 and I were assigned to handle the M60s as we were the only 2 people the CO/XO would trust them with.

The GM1 and I built our team around a questionnaire I developed and a personal interview with each "candidate". The questionnaire asked the candidate to list all weapons they had ever fired, when thay had fired them and how many times they had done so. It was shocking to this Texas farm boy to find out that 90% of the crew and 70% of the officers had never fired a weapon except for "famfire" at boot camp or for annual "famfire" trainng to be an inport POOW.

When ever we "trained" for defense scenarios, the weapons were issued ONLY with EMPTY magazines. Real bullets never left the armory. The GM1 and I didn't trust our people to give them real bullets, even a singlton like Barney Fife carried.

I routinely reported to the CO and XO that if we were ever attacked, we were all gonna die.
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KLJ77
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Re: Firearms...Pay Attention To Those Around You!

Post by KLJ77 »

Thanks, Doc B and Byrd. ::handshake::

Doc...if my story helps others to revisit weapons handling safety, then that's a plus. I don't shoot as much today as I used to, but one thing I do is; I 'mental practice' the basic fundamentals of firearms safety, always keeping them at the forefront of my mind whenever I pick up my weapons to clean them or prep them for transport to the range. Everyone should do that and never become complacent. Now I'm preaching...so I'll shut up. I don't want to insult anyone's intelligence. ::paranoid::

Byrd...Yes Sir, there are many out there who seem to go brain dead when handling guns. I've thrown many students and people off my range during live fire, indoor and outdoor, because they thought it would be cool to 'horseplay' around, or they would turn around with a fully loaded weapon instead of keeping their weapon pointed downrange, consistently continue to fire rounds off when the 'cease fire' was given. I was called many names for being too harsh and compliant when it came to safety...but I never apologized for it. I've had numerous 'close calls', but I never had a death or injury...well, other than the shooters who couldn't seem to get their off hand thumb out of the way of the slide because their grip was wrong. :roll:
LJ

"The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are now outnumbered by those that vote for a living."
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KLJ77
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Re: Firearms...Pay Attention To Those Around You!

Post by KLJ77 »

zzyzzogeton wrote: Fri May 15, 2020 6:07 pm LJ -

I remember watching a portion of that course or at least one similar to it. For my last active duty ship in the late 80s, I was assigned to an AO out of Norfolk. As Navigator/First Lieutenant/Admin Officer (yes, one of those stupid "minimum manning concept" ships where Department Heads and nearly everyone else wore multiple hats). My training consisted of spending 2 days at Little Creek qualifying on 1911s, M14s and Shotguns and one day "observing" what real self defense teams did. ::doh::

Since the 3rd Division (Gunnery Division) was under me, and as Navigator/Admin Officer, I had the least important GQ billet (OOD underway), and the Co was always on the bridge for GQ and the XO was in CIC one deck below, it was determined that I should be in charge of our "Ship's Self Defense Force" for our upcoming deployment. The ship had never had a "real" self defense force prior to the new XO and I arriving aboard the same day. I guess in truth, we didn't have one after I got there either. :shock:

To call our 3rd Division a real "Gunnery Division" was in a way, a joke. We had 4 50 cal machine guns that could be mounted on 4 swivels on the gunwales at the "corners". We also had 2 M60s, 8 1911s, 6 Remington Shotguns and 6 M14s. That's right - even though the military, including the Navy, had shifted to 92Ms and M16s, my poor little oiler still had 45s and M14s. Oh, yeah, we had 4 "line throwing guns", M14s fitted with the M87 adapter. I guess we could have shot the rubber line spools at people.

We only had 3 GMs. Other than our GM1, no one on our team was ever able to go the training you taught. Part of that was we had no one to spare to go to the classes. Our Postal Clerk, a PC3, also stood watched as our BTOW down in the main spaces. I had a PN3 who was a qualified line throwing gun shooter - we didn't have enough GMs to man 2 stations on each side of the ship during major unrep evolutions.

The Little Creek class didn't cover M60s, so I had to go over to one of the LPDs in port and get trained on it by the E6 (Staff SGT) Marine assigned as MC Liaison. I fired it 1x while underway in the 19 months I was on the ship/team. Our GM1 and I were assigned to handle the M60s as we were the only 2 people the CO/XO would trust them with.

The GM1 and I built our team around a questionnaire I developed and a personal interview with each "candidate". The questionnaire asked the candidate to list all weapons they had ever fired, when thay had fired them and how many times they had done so. It was shocking to this Texas farm boy to find out that 90% of the crew and 70% of the officers had never fired a weapon except for "famfire" at boot camp or for annual "famfire" trainng to be an inport POOW.

When ever we "trained" for defense scenarios, the weapons were issued ONLY with EMPTY magazines. Real bullets never left the armory. The GM1 and I didn't trust our people to give them real bullets, even a singlton like Barney Fife carried.

I routinely reported to the CO and XO that if we were ever attacked, we were all gonna die.
ZZ - I fully understand your frustration you had to contend with. That was a time where very few CO's or XO's wanted to 'risk' an incident and ruin their careers. It was kind of a 'catch-22' if you will. Nevertheless, your mind and heart was in the right place. Reading about your experience, I know you would have thoroughly enjoyed both courses we taught. It would have been an honor to have been able to have a team from your Command go through the course. ::tu:: ::handshake:: The M-60 was an awesome weapon to shoot. I really enjoyed the opportunities I had. And then...along came the M240B, the lighter weight version of the M-60 with the detachable barrel carry handle. I was able to be chosen by my command to attend a two week course using the M240B. It was taught by four Navy SEALS and included three days of going out on speed boats, attaching the 240 to a weapons stanchion and learning how to accurately fire at orange surface buoys while turning, high speed and in choppy waters. Now THAT was one of my best experiences as a Range Officer.
LJ

"The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are now outnumbered by those that vote for a living."
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tongueriver
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Re: Firearms...Pay Attention To Those Around You!

Post by tongueriver »

Anyone who is involved with defensive firearms, carry or otherwise, NEEDS to read at least one of the books on the subject by Massad Ayoob, the acknowledged most knowledgeable man in the world on the subject. No matter what you know now, you will get an eye-opener or twelve. Required reading.
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KLJ77
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Re: Firearms...Pay Attention To Those Around You!

Post by KLJ77 »

TongueRiver,

You are on point 110%. Massad Ayoob has some awesome training criteria. I've read numerous books of his and watched many more videos regarding his expertise. Thanks for making this post about him. One will never go wrong with his instruction. ::tu::
LJ

"The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are now outnumbered by those that vote for a living."
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Quick Steel
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Re: Firearms...Pay Attention To Those Around You!

Post by Quick Steel »

tongueriver you are so right. Massad Ayoob is my gun guru.
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FRJ
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Re: Firearms...Pay Attention To Those Around You!

Post by FRJ »

Here's one.
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tongueriver
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Re: Firearms...Pay Attention To Those Around You!

Post by tongueriver »

Of possible interest.

https://armedcitizensnetwork.org/
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