Western Bird and Trouts - A 28/48 Patterns Timeline
- zzyzzogeton
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Western Bird and Trouts - A 28/48 Patterns Timeline
Over on bladeforums, a question was posted concerning the 28 and 48 patterns. This was my long winded answer over there.
I figured it needed to be here as well, for posterity.
Here is a long winded history of the 28/48 pattern knives by Western.
The 48 is in the 1931 catalog as a 248, X248 and L48. No 48A or 48B. These early ones were the fore runners of the 48A knives.
The 48 is still in the 1936 catalog, but the 248 is gone. Only the L48 and X248 are still present.
1941 had a ton of 48 patterns - the standard L48 and X248 are still there, the X248 returns and the 548, R48, 48BGH, 48BG and W48F make their debut. The 548 had a stag handle, W48F had a cocobola handle, the 48BGH and 48BG had orange, yellow or green tenite handles and were "Finnish" in construction - no guard on the edge side of the handle. The R48 has "red composite" handles and the guard "did not extend beyond the handle." I take that to mean "Finnish style".
1941 also saw the introduction of the 28 pattern in the form of the BG28. Yellow, orange and green tenite handles, guardless "Finnish" style WITHOUT a lanyard hole in the pommel.
During WW2, the 48 pattern essentially disappears and almost all civilian construction ceased. I have a W48 lying around somewhere that has a pre-WW2 stamp and a steel guard, IMPLYING that at least some civilian production occurred during the war.
We only have advertisements for the 1946 to 1949 era.
Over the years, I have found a 1947 ad for the 48BGG with "brilliant orange, bright green, rich ivory and sunset red tenite handles", 1947 and 1948 ads for the L48 and a 1948 Distributors catalog page that listed the L48A, the L48C, 48BAP, and 48CAP. A 1948 ad shows the 48CAP advertised as the "No. 28" with red/ivory/orange plastic, leather or bone stag handles.
The L48C and 48CAP had 2-1/2" blades, making them close equivalents of the 28 pattern. The 48BAP is the first instance of what would later become the 48B pattern. There were NO pictures of the L48C or 48CAP in the catalog, so I don't know if the 1948 versions had a lanyard hole.
The 1950 catalog shows a plethora of 48 and 28 patterns. The first group is the 48BGG, 48BAP and 48CAP. Red, ivory or orange plastic handles. In this grouping is also the 28AP, available with red or ivory handles and a lanyard hole.
Also in the 1950 catalog is the L48ABG, L48B, L28 (with lanyard hole) and the No.84 Combination, which was a double sheath for the 48BGG and 48CAP, also with red, orange or ivory handles. I have seen combos for sale with all Ivory, all Red and red/ivory mixed handles.
1954/1955 saw the introduction of model numbers to the pile side ricasso. As I have never seen a pile side model number of 48BGG or 48BAP or 48CAP, I have assumed that this is about the time these models changed to P48A, P48B and P28.
In 1956, we saw the introduction of the Black Beauty set of knives. This set included the F48A, F48B and F28.
The 1959-1960 catalog had the L48A, 648 (bone stag), 248, P48A, L48B and 648B (bone stag) in the 48 patterns. I have been unable to determine WHEN the L48ABG became the L48A. The L48A retained the fuller of the L48ABG, but the BG was dropped.
The 29 pattern for 1959-1960 had the L28, 648, and P28 (ivory and red tenite), with lanyard holes.
There was also the "Twin Sets" - L84, P84 and 684, with leather, tenite or bone stag handles.
Starting in 1961, any of the 648, 648B knives would have had Delrin "bone stag" handles instead of real bone stag.
The next set of known changes in in 1967/1968. Model numbers shifted from the pile side ricasso to the guard. This catalog had the L28 and F28, the L48B, F48B and 648B, L48A, 648, F48A, and the S-648B and S-648 with stainless steel blades.
By 1975, the 48 pattern is down to the 648A, 648B and F48B, and the 28 pattern is down to the 628. All these 6xx knives had Delrin handles. The 1975 pamphlet does not show enough detail to determine if the 628 still has a lanyard hole.
The 1980 catalog shows the 628 without a lanyard hole. The 628 and all 48 patterns have bone stag Delrin handles. No lanyard holes. 648A, 648B, S-H48A, S-H48B. The H48 series also has Delrin handles, but Western specified that these knives had "horn patterned Delrin" rather than "bone stag Delrin" handles.
By 1986, we are down to the 628 and L48. The L48 is L48A sized, but "A" and "B" designations have disappeared, probably due to the demise of the 48B family.
Sometime between 1986 and 1989, Coleman Western added the R16, a rubber handled B&T.
By 1991, the last "full year" of Longmont production, only the 628 is left of all the B&Ts Western had produced over the years.
In 1993, the first full year of Camillus production, we have the L628, which was a stupid designator, but for reasons beyond comprehension, Camillus took the 628, put leather disks on it and called it an "L628". Camillus continued the R16 Small hunter.
1996 showed the introduction of the R2 B&T , and R12 and R16 Small Hunter, along with L628.
Camillus continued to produce all these B&Ts/Small hunters through 2006, the last year of production.
I figured it needed to be here as well, for posterity.
Here is a long winded history of the 28/48 pattern knives by Western.
The 48 is in the 1931 catalog as a 248, X248 and L48. No 48A or 48B. These early ones were the fore runners of the 48A knives.
The 48 is still in the 1936 catalog, but the 248 is gone. Only the L48 and X248 are still present.
1941 had a ton of 48 patterns - the standard L48 and X248 are still there, the X248 returns and the 548, R48, 48BGH, 48BG and W48F make their debut. The 548 had a stag handle, W48F had a cocobola handle, the 48BGH and 48BG had orange, yellow or green tenite handles and were "Finnish" in construction - no guard on the edge side of the handle. The R48 has "red composite" handles and the guard "did not extend beyond the handle." I take that to mean "Finnish style".
1941 also saw the introduction of the 28 pattern in the form of the BG28. Yellow, orange and green tenite handles, guardless "Finnish" style WITHOUT a lanyard hole in the pommel.
During WW2, the 48 pattern essentially disappears and almost all civilian construction ceased. I have a W48 lying around somewhere that has a pre-WW2 stamp and a steel guard, IMPLYING that at least some civilian production occurred during the war.
We only have advertisements for the 1946 to 1949 era.
Over the years, I have found a 1947 ad for the 48BGG with "brilliant orange, bright green, rich ivory and sunset red tenite handles", 1947 and 1948 ads for the L48 and a 1948 Distributors catalog page that listed the L48A, the L48C, 48BAP, and 48CAP. A 1948 ad shows the 48CAP advertised as the "No. 28" with red/ivory/orange plastic, leather or bone stag handles.
The L48C and 48CAP had 2-1/2" blades, making them close equivalents of the 28 pattern. The 48BAP is the first instance of what would later become the 48B pattern. There were NO pictures of the L48C or 48CAP in the catalog, so I don't know if the 1948 versions had a lanyard hole.
The 1950 catalog shows a plethora of 48 and 28 patterns. The first group is the 48BGG, 48BAP and 48CAP. Red, ivory or orange plastic handles. In this grouping is also the 28AP, available with red or ivory handles and a lanyard hole.
Also in the 1950 catalog is the L48ABG, L48B, L28 (with lanyard hole) and the No.84 Combination, which was a double sheath for the 48BGG and 48CAP, also with red, orange or ivory handles. I have seen combos for sale with all Ivory, all Red and red/ivory mixed handles.
1954/1955 saw the introduction of model numbers to the pile side ricasso. As I have never seen a pile side model number of 48BGG or 48BAP or 48CAP, I have assumed that this is about the time these models changed to P48A, P48B and P28.
In 1956, we saw the introduction of the Black Beauty set of knives. This set included the F48A, F48B and F28.
The 1959-1960 catalog had the L48A, 648 (bone stag), 248, P48A, L48B and 648B (bone stag) in the 48 patterns. I have been unable to determine WHEN the L48ABG became the L48A. The L48A retained the fuller of the L48ABG, but the BG was dropped.
The 29 pattern for 1959-1960 had the L28, 648, and P28 (ivory and red tenite), with lanyard holes.
There was also the "Twin Sets" - L84, P84 and 684, with leather, tenite or bone stag handles.
Starting in 1961, any of the 648, 648B knives would have had Delrin "bone stag" handles instead of real bone stag.
The next set of known changes in in 1967/1968. Model numbers shifted from the pile side ricasso to the guard. This catalog had the L28 and F28, the L48B, F48B and 648B, L48A, 648, F48A, and the S-648B and S-648 with stainless steel blades.
By 1975, the 48 pattern is down to the 648A, 648B and F48B, and the 28 pattern is down to the 628. All these 6xx knives had Delrin handles. The 1975 pamphlet does not show enough detail to determine if the 628 still has a lanyard hole.
The 1980 catalog shows the 628 without a lanyard hole. The 628 and all 48 patterns have bone stag Delrin handles. No lanyard holes. 648A, 648B, S-H48A, S-H48B. The H48 series also has Delrin handles, but Western specified that these knives had "horn patterned Delrin" rather than "bone stag Delrin" handles.
By 1986, we are down to the 628 and L48. The L48 is L48A sized, but "A" and "B" designations have disappeared, probably due to the demise of the 48B family.
Sometime between 1986 and 1989, Coleman Western added the R16, a rubber handled B&T.
By 1991, the last "full year" of Longmont production, only the 628 is left of all the B&Ts Western had produced over the years.
In 1993, the first full year of Camillus production, we have the L628, which was a stupid designator, but for reasons beyond comprehension, Camillus took the 628, put leather disks on it and called it an "L628". Camillus continued the R16 Small hunter.
1996 showed the introduction of the R2 B&T , and R12 and R16 Small Hunter, along with L628.
Camillus continued to produce all these B&Ts/Small hunters through 2006, the last year of production.
- zzyzzogeton
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Re: Western Bird and Trouts - A 28/48 Patterns Timeline
Just had to edit it to added a sentence that some how didn't get included.
- rangerbluedog
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Re: Western Bird and Trouts - A 28/48 Patterns Timeline
Great info, Z!
- Old Hunter
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Re: Western Bird and Trouts - A 28/48 Patterns Timeline
Small contribution to this great Western information. I found this flier folded into a circa 1960 Case Dealer Catalog I bought a few months ago. Best I can tell it was printed in 1955 and includes quite a few illustrations of the 28 and 48 pattern variations. OH
Deep in the guts of most men is buried the involuntary response to the hunter's horn, a prickle of the nape hairs, an acceleration of the pulse, an atavistic memory of his fathers, who killed first with stone, and then with club...Robert Ruark
- zzyzzogeton
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Re: Western Bird and Trouts - A 28/48 Patterns Timeline
Excellent resource - I agree 1955 - based on the 55-4 on page 2 and the model number reference on page 4.
I see 4 "HHHMMMSSS" on this -
For the P48A, it lists red and ivory as options. The 1950 catalog lists red, ivory and orange as options. The 1959-1960 catalog specifies red, ivory and YELLOW. So they dropped orange for a while and then added Yellow.
This would have been one of the last flyers with WESTERN STATES CUTLERY as they changed the name to WESTERN CUTLERY in 1956.
Page 4 confirms that model numbers started in 1955.
The P10 hatchets with the longhorn in the handles apparently started around this time since the 1950 catalog doesn't show them.
I see 4 "HHHMMMSSS" on this -
For the P48A, it lists red and ivory as options. The 1950 catalog lists red, ivory and orange as options. The 1959-1960 catalog specifies red, ivory and YELLOW. So they dropped orange for a while and then added Yellow.
This would have been one of the last flyers with WESTERN STATES CUTLERY as they changed the name to WESTERN CUTLERY in 1956.
Page 4 confirms that model numbers started in 1955.
The P10 hatchets with the longhorn in the handles apparently started around this time since the 1950 catalog doesn't show them.
- Old Hunter
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Re: Western Bird and Trouts - A 28/48 Patterns Timeline
ZZ, glad it could add to the historical info on Western Knives - the longest owned knife I have is a Western Black Beauty my folks gave me for Christmas 1968. Thanks for what you do to keep Western Cutlery history alive. By the way, I got two of those Western States catalog sheets in my Case catalog, PM me your mailing address and I will mail one of them to you - you can add it to your Western Catalog resource material. OH
Deep in the guts of most men is buried the involuntary response to the hunter's horn, a prickle of the nape hairs, an acceleration of the pulse, an atavistic memory of his fathers, who killed first with stone, and then with club...Robert Ruark
- zzyzzogeton
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Re: Western Bird and Trouts - A 28/48 Patterns Timeline
OH - thank you for that offer. I'm gonna take you up on it. PM send with my address.
Your flyer is definitely historical in the documentation of changes to the Western line up.
It is little things like this that lead to additional discoveries. One little tidbit - the flyer specifies 3 major sporting magazines in which Western advertised year round, This provides a clue for others to use when looking for info.
Your flyer is definitely historical in the documentation of changes to the Western line up.
It is little things like this that lead to additional discoveries. One little tidbit - the flyer specifies 3 major sporting magazines in which Western advertised year round, This provides a clue for others to use when looking for info.
- Old Hunter
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Re: Western Bird and Trouts - A 28/48 Patterns Timeline
ZZ, I haven't gotten your PM (mailing address) yet. I am going to town today to mail my Christmas cards, probably about 10:00. OH
Deep in the guts of most men is buried the involuntary response to the hunter's horn, a prickle of the nape hairs, an acceleration of the pulse, an atavistic memory of his fathers, who killed first with stone, and then with club...Robert Ruark
- zzyzzogeton
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Re: Western Bird and Trouts - A 28/48 Patterns Timeline
Sorry about that. I have no idea why the first one didn't get to you. I sent it again. Hopefully, it will get there. Let me know if you get it. It currently shows as being in my outbox.Old Hunter wrote: ↑Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:47 am ZZ, I haven't gotten your PM (mailing address) yet. I am going to town today to mail my Christmas cards, probably about 10:00. OH
- zzyzzogeton
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Re: Western Bird and Trouts - A 28/48 Patterns Timeline
New information found - an ad from a 1945 Field & Stream.
The ad depicts a Finnish/puuko pattern knife and specifies the come with 3-1/8", 4-3/8", 5-1/4" or 5-5/8" blades with orange, yellow or green tenite handles. This is the ONLY mention of yellow tenite after WW2 that I have found. On thiing that indicates it is from an edition that cam eout BEFORE the war ended is the last line of the ad.
"No Knives available for civilian use".
The ad depicts a Finnish/puuko pattern knife and specifies the come with 3-1/8", 4-3/8", 5-1/4" or 5-5/8" blades with orange, yellow or green tenite handles. This is the ONLY mention of yellow tenite after WW2 that I have found. On thiing that indicates it is from an edition that cam eout BEFORE the war ended is the last line of the ad.
"No Knives available for civilian use".
- zzyzzogeton
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Re: Western Bird and Trouts - A 28/48 Patterns Timeline
zzyzzogeton wrote: ↑Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:49 pm New information found - an ad from a 1945 Field & Stream.
The ad depicts a Finnish/puuko pattern knife and specifies the come with 3-1/8", 4-3/8", 5-1/4" or 5-5/8" blades with orange, yellow or green tenite handles. This is the ONLY mention of yellow tenite after WW2 that I have found. On thing that indicates it is from an edition that came out BEFORE the war ended is the last line of the ad.
"No Knives available for civilian use".
Re: Western Bird and Trouts - A 28/48 Patterns Timeline
I was having so much trouble identifying those Finnish type knives, Thank you very much Zzzz for all your knowledge. I am a long time reader of your posts! It’s the 2 knives at the top.
A man without a knife is a man without a life
Re: Western Bird and Trouts - A 28/48 Patterns Timeline
Here are 2 Western Cutlery puuko style knives. Green and orange tenite with their sheaths. They seem to fit the advertisement that Zzyzz posted. It’s the only reference I have found, the main difference seems to be the bolster/hand guard area.
A man without a knife is a man without a life
- buckshot22
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Re: Western Bird and Trouts - A 28/48 Patterns Timeline
Hi all. I’ve been a AAPK member awhile, but new to the Western Forum. I have a few pretty unique/rare Western pieces. I picked one up over this last weekend that pertains to this thread and has me a little perplexed after reading Z’s description of the Twin Sets. I posted a few pics below. The handles are jigged bone, not stag. The 648 twin has grooves cut into the handles that look to be factory. The gentleman I bought it from is the original owner. He bought the set new in the 50’s. I’d appreciate any light anyone could shed on this seemingly unique piece.
- zzyzzogeton
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Re: Western Bird and Trouts - A 28/48 Patterns Timeline
This set has a conundrum.
The knives have the model numbers stamped into the guard. It's generally accepted that Western didn't start doing that until 1967, although a couple of anecdotal statements claim that they were gifted guard stamped L39s through S&H Stamp redemptions in the late 1950s. I am still trying to acquire 1957-1959 S&H catalogs that don't cost an arm and 3 legs to try to verify those statements. This is the conundrum as this would imply that these knives were made in 1967 or later. IF these were truly made in the late 1950s and have legitimate guard stamps, these knives would bolster those L39 statements.
The twin sets were made only until the early 1960s. No twin sets are listed in the 1968 catalog or any later catalogs. This would imply, if the set is original, that the set was made before 1961.
The spacer patterns appear to match/closely resemble the patterns of the 1958-1959 catalog renditions of the 628 and 648. The model number of 648 would match the 1958-1959 designations of the 248/648 models NOT having an "A" suffix like the L48A and P48A of the same era.
For the late 1950s, the stamps should be WESTERN over BOULDER, COLO. over MADE IN U.S.A. on the mark side ricasso and the model numbers stamped on the pile side ricasso. 648/628 knives from 1961 onward would have jigged Delrin handles. This also matches with a pre-1961 manufacture.
The 648/628 knives of the 1958=1959 catalogs had jigged bone handles, which matches here.
Except for the guard stamping, I would firmly put this set in the 1958 - 1959 era.
The knives have the model numbers stamped into the guard. It's generally accepted that Western didn't start doing that until 1967, although a couple of anecdotal statements claim that they were gifted guard stamped L39s through S&H Stamp redemptions in the late 1950s. I am still trying to acquire 1957-1959 S&H catalogs that don't cost an arm and 3 legs to try to verify those statements. This is the conundrum as this would imply that these knives were made in 1967 or later. IF these were truly made in the late 1950s and have legitimate guard stamps, these knives would bolster those L39 statements.
The twin sets were made only until the early 1960s. No twin sets are listed in the 1968 catalog or any later catalogs. This would imply, if the set is original, that the set was made before 1961.
The spacer patterns appear to match/closely resemble the patterns of the 1958-1959 catalog renditions of the 628 and 648. The model number of 648 would match the 1958-1959 designations of the 248/648 models NOT having an "A" suffix like the L48A and P48A of the same era.
For the late 1950s, the stamps should be WESTERN over BOULDER, COLO. over MADE IN U.S.A. on the mark side ricasso and the model numbers stamped on the pile side ricasso. 648/628 knives from 1961 onward would have jigged Delrin handles. This also matches with a pre-1961 manufacture.
The 648/628 knives of the 1958=1959 catalogs had jigged bone handles, which matches here.
Except for the guard stamping, I would firmly put this set in the 1958 - 1959 era.
- buckshot22
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Re: Western Bird and Trouts - A 28/48 Patterns Timeline
Excellent info! Thanks. Are the grooves on the handles of the 648 factory? The gentleman I bought the set from said he bought it new and did not alter it. Have you seen this with any other Western handles?
- buckshot22
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Re: Western Bird and Trouts - A 28/48 Patterns Timeline
Mark side ricasso stamps. They’re not quite matching each other.
Re: Western Bird and Trouts - A 28/48 Patterns Timeline
My father had a salesman knife roll it was a Remington for fixed blades. There were a few different manufacturers knives in it. Looking back at earlier posts here I didn’t see any westerns in advertising with wooden handles? Maybe someone can shed some light. Some of the knives have rust. Some I’m sure are near mint.
Re: Western Bird and Trouts - A 28/48 Patterns Timeline
Your knife may be1941 XW66. For reasons un known to me some of the X66 knifes had spacers in the center of the wooden handles .great looking group of knfesLKSKNIVES wrote: ↑Tue Mar 12, 2024 1:18 am My father had a salesman knife roll it was a Remington for fixed blades. There were a few different manufacturers knives in it. Looking back at earlier posts here I didn’t see any westerns in advertising with wooden handles? Maybe someone can shed some light. Some of the knives have rust. Some I’m sure are near mint.IMG_0624.jpegIMG_0695.jpegIMG_0699.jpegIMG_0703.jpegIMG_0706.jpeg
Re: Western Bird and Trouts - A 28/48 Patterns Timeline
Thank you very much for the information. Just trying to learn as I go.
Steve
Steve
Re: Western Bird and Trouts - A 28/48 Patterns Timeline
Would anyone have a value on the two western knives with the wood handles out of the group one for sure has some rust on it not sure if the other one does or not. I don’t have a sheath for either knife. If more pictures are needed I could try and get some better ones.
Thank you for your input.
Steve
Thank you for your input.
Steve
Re: Western Bird and Trouts - A 28/48 Patterns Timeline
Would anyone have a value on the two western knives with the wood handles out of the group one for sure has some rust on it not sure if the other one does or not. I don’t have a sheath for either knife. If more pictures are needed I could try and get some better ones.
Thank you for your input.
Steve
Thank you for your input.
Steve
Re: Western Bird and Trouts - A 28/48 Patterns Timeline
Here is a picture of one I got off E-bay with the original sheath .only difference is mine does not have the extra red spacer in the middle of the wood like your knife .I paid 52 $ including shipping charges .LKSKNIVES wrote: ↑Fri Mar 22, 2024 1:59 am Would anyone have a value on the two western knives with the wood handles out of the group one for sure has some rust on it not sure if the other one does or not. I don’t have a sheath for either knife. If more pictures are needed I could try and get some better ones.
Thank you for your input.
Steve
Re: Western Bird and Trouts - A 28/48 Patterns Timeline
Thank you very much. Trying to get an idea what some of these might be worth.