Can anyone date my L77?

In 1911, H. N. Platts, was able to draw on his extensive friendships and family connections in the cutlery world to start Western States Cutlery and Manufacturing of Boulder Colorado. At first only a jobbing business, by 1920 construction and machinery purchases were underway to begin manufacture of knives. Through name changes--to Western States Cutlery Co. in 1953, then Western Cutlery Co. in 1956--and moves first across town and later to Longmont Colorado, the company stayed under the leadership of the Platt family until 1984. In that year, the company was sold to Coleman, becoming Coleman-Western. Eventually purchased by Camillus in 1991, Western continued until Camillus expired in 2007.
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Foz
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Can anyone date my L77?

Post by Foz »

Can anyone help me date my L77? Ricasso is marked Western, Boulder Col, Pat'd made in USA. No patent number like many of the L77s Ive seen.
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jerryd6818
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Re: Can anyone date my L77?

Post by jerryd6818 »

Welcome to AAPK. I can't help you but you have it posted in the correct forum to get the help you need. Just be patient and check back now and then.
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zzyzzogeton
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Re: Can anyone date my L77?

Post by zzyzzogeton »

To answer your question, I place that configuration of L77 as mid to late 1942.

As far as my reasons for this placement::

First, the L77, in this model, did not exist prior to WW2. There was an L77, but it was a 5" bladed, single edged knife with a S-curved brass guard.

Western came out with the L76, a 7" blade, double edge "Commando" dagger shorty after the war started, sometime in early 1942, in an attempt to make and sell a knife comparable to and competitive with the F-S "Commando" dagger. Reports back from the field indicated that the vast majority of Marines using the L76 would prefer a single-edged blade.

Western changed the blade from double edged to single edged and reassigned the model number "L77" to the result. The model was made throughout the war and was very popular, especially among west coast Marines. This "Make it", "Sell it", "Get Feedback", "Make changes" cycle would have taken at least a couple of months, if not longer, so mid-1942, say April/May/June time frame. NO FIRM INFO to support my position, other that what I have read and inferred by reading between the lines.

Second - your knife has a brass guard. Brass became a "strategic material" early on in the war and was restricted in its use. Manufacturers could use what stock they had on hand as they saw fit, but were unable to purchase more except with authorization from the War Department. This also leads me to say your knife was part of the first L77 production.


MY time line assignment of L77 configurations is
Brass guards = first run
Steel guards = subsequent runs
Plastic pommels + steel guards = late runs
Plastic guards + plastic pommels = last runs.

NOTE: Some folks put brass guarded G46-5s and G46-6s as early WW2. In my opinion, NOPE. Western produced the G46-5 and G46-6 with brass guards AFTER the war when brass stock became available again. These were made into the mid-1950s.

Third, is the PAT'D stamp. The most prevalent knives with this stamp is found on the larger G46-8 and while no definitive timeline exists, "most" folks assign this stamp to mid-1942, when Western first made them as a larger alternative to the 7" blade 1219C2/USN-MK2 after Western was no given a contract to produce them.

Just my 2¢ worth.
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jerryd6818
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Re: Can anyone date my L77?

Post by jerryd6818 »

Wayne, what's your take on the hole in the pommel. Factory original or later garage mod.?
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Foz
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Re: Can anyone date my L77?

Post by Foz »

Wow! Great info indeed. I have done quite a bit of googling on this pattern but there aren't a ton of sources out there. I read somewhere that production started in the thirties and ran into the mid fifties. I was really hoping this was pre war or war era just for the historical significance. I have also read that the L77s produced post war were not available with the 7" blade, only the shorter one.

Btw this knife was in a box of knives I received from a family member who's husband recently passed away. I wish I knew more history on the knife, such as how he came to own it and who owned it prior to him.
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zzyzzogeton
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Re: Can anyone date my L77?

Post by zzyzzogeton »

jerryd6818 wrote:Wayne, what's your take on the hole in the pommel. Factory original or later garage mod.?
Factory original. The L76 and L77 are the odd-ball with respect to lanyard holes. I have seen them both with and without holes, in near mint condition to wore out and out away wet. Since they weren't made to any MilSpecs, I have assumed that the direct unit orders could specify whether a specific order should have lanyard holes or not. Probably based on type of unit placing the order.

Every G46-6 "Shark", W31 "Parachutist" and the life raft knives I have seen have had a factory lanyard hole.

All other WW2 vintage production were "no lanyard holes" - G46-8, G46-5 "Baby Shark", L71 "Seabees", and the Bx54 "Bushman".
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Re: Can anyone date my L77?

Post by Foz »

Does a picture of the sheath help date it at all?
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zzyzzogeton
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Re: Can anyone date my L77?

Post by zzyzzogeton »

Foz wrote:Wow! Great info indeed. I have done quite a bit of googling on this pattern but there aren't a ton of sources out there. I read somewhere that production started in the thirties and ran into the mid fifties. I was really hoping this was pre war or war era just for the historical significance. I have also read that the L77s produced post war were not available with the 7" blade, only the shorter one.

Btw this knife was in a box of knives I received from a family member who's husband recently passed away. I wish I knew more history on the knife, such as how he came to own it and who owned it prior to him.
The only similarities between the WW2 L77 and the non-WW2 versions is the model number and the fact that the blade was a fullered single-edged. No bone or stag handle options during the war, no s-guard.

The 77 model number first appeared in the 1941 catalog. At that time, it sported a 5" blade with 3 handle options -
577 - buckhorn stag
L77 - stacked leather
277 - composition pearl, aka celluloidish

During WW2, when the L76 met with disfavor amongst its target market, Western "resurrected" the short-lived (about 9 months) L77 model number and assigned it to the single-edged brother of the L76 .

Then after WW2, Western killed off the 7" L77 and reintroduced the L77 in its 1941 aspect - again 5" single-edge blade, brass s-guard.

The handle options were -
L77 - stacked leather
677 - bone stag

Then in 1958, a short-lived version - the L77A - same as the L77 but with a serrated spine for "small limbs and bones".
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zzyzzogeton
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Re: Can anyone date my L77?

Post by zzyzzogeton »

Foz wrote:Does a picture of the sheath help date it at all?20180212_193416.jpg
Not a bit, :mrgreen:

It's just a very good condition, standard WW2 L76/L77 sheath. There are a few sheaths that came equipped with the M1910 wire belt hanger, but even those fall into the same time frame.
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Re: Can anyone date my L77?

Post by Foz »

Can't thank you enough for the info sir! I will have to do some digging to see if I can find out my family member ended up with it.
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terryl308
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Re: Can anyone date my L77?

Post by terryl308 »

Very interesting zz and foz and welcome to the aapk forum Foz. I have been looking for old ww2 Westerns with not much luck. Had a customer see the W31 a while back (in the "Knifemakers Who Went West") and like the blade shape. So I attempted to make one similar, but I didn't try to fake one, just use their blade shape and handle material. No fuller or alum butt cap in my feeble attempt. Pretty hard to find an original and if you do they cost a lot! Thought I would show you, again not trying to copy Western exactly, just like the unique blade shape. ::tu:: Terry
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zzyzzogeton
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Re: Can anyone date my L77?

Post by zzyzzogeton »

To me, the W31 is the perfect size for any task within its target range tasks. The handle fits my hand "just right" and the blade is not too wide. The blade length is nimble but strong.

Can it baton a brick? No. Can you chop a tree down with it? Maybe, after a long, long time.

Cut rope, gut and skin a deer, cut cloth/paper/plastic bags, boxes, clean fish, and more ? Yep, you betcha. The only reason I don't is that I only have the one and its too historical for daily use. But making a copy is in my future.

People with large hands would find the handle uncomfortablly short, though.
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