Good vs Bad

[TwoFlowersLuggage]

I was just thinking about some of the good and bad knives that are being produced in China. On the good side, we have very low-cost knives like the Rough Riders, Ganzo/Firebird, Sanrenmu, Enlan, etc, as well as the mid-priced, very nice knives from CH, Two Sun, Kizer, etc, etc. (basically anything you can see on the LuvThemKnives youtube channel), and the brand names that import at least part of their lines, like Kershaw, CRKT, Buck, etc. On the bad side, I would put anything from one of the zillions of Frost Cutlery brands, Elk Ridge, Tac Force, anything with "zombie" in its name, and anything shaped like a karambit that sells on AliExpress.com.

So, here's my question - I've never actually owned a Frost Cutlery imported knife. Are they as bad as everyone says? There are people that say "Steel Warrior" is not too bad, but I'm having a hard time believing one Frost brand is really any different than any of the others. And, if they are all bad, do you think the manufacturing processes of the "good" knife companies will eventually be transferred to the other Chinese factories? I have to believe that like any industry, the knife manufacturing industry in China is probably not really all that big, and there is probably a fair amount of cross-pollination between employers that occurs. If one factory can make high quality knives for cheap, then I think any of those factories could do it too. Will they?

[bighomer]

Some of the Frost offerings are coming out of Pakistan, they seem to be a notch below the China made knives imo, that said I've got a couple that seem be pretty well made.
I've got a few Steel warriors and they are right there with RR's, sweet little knives for the money, where they were made I have no idea. I have a frost butterfly that I found on the side of the road probably 30 years ago that has excellent steel in it, was told they were made in Japan back then.

[Railsplitter]

It's hard to say where the Chinese factories are headed as far improvements. I suppose anything could happen. I know that companies like A.G. Russell and Spyderco are very selective about which factory makes their China made knives. As I understand it, those factories have to prove that they can meet strict quality demands or they don't get the contract.

I have only one Steel Warrior knife. It's a Tiny Toothpick and it's a pretty good knife. Fit & finish is very good and the bone is nicely colored. Good snap and sharp blade. Their habit of putting a Rockwell test dimple on the blade with a sticker pointing to it is a little ridiculous but it's a good knife.

[jerryd6818]

Several years back my Cousin bought a Steel Warrior doctor's knife for me at SMKW. I had forgotten about the Rockwell test dimple. Now I remember, at the time, I thought that was kind of hokey.

[TwoFlowersLuggage]

I keep picturing some poor guy in the factory with a hammer and a center punch smacking every knife blade and putting on the little sticker. He has no idea what the sticker says or means. No Rockwell hardness machine anywhere on the premises...

[jerryd6818]

Probably.

[Edgewise]

I'm a little confused. I was a faithful believer in the touted USA knife quality and avoided the Chinese knife plague.
Then my wallet seriously jeopardized my obsession so I was forced to buy Chinese to calm the beast within.
I have a Steel Warrior in stag, a RR peanut (my first and only peanut, so far) and clasp knife, and a Taylor Brands OT. Here comes my confusion.....
I can't find anything wrong with their fit and finish or their walk and talk.
I admit they don't get heavy use, so I'm guessing that their crappy reputation is either in inferior steel or in not standing up to real USA type knife use.
I was also surprised by the authentic praise the Chinese knives get on this sub-forum.
A few knives are not enough to judge, but I was more prepared to risk faulty walk and talk on a Chinese than on a US.
The gift knives that have dropped into my lap from certain AAPK humanitarians are of the most dependable quality, and they will calm the beast for a long time, but in future my New Year's resolution is to limit myself to AAPK only, the store or the Want Ads.
Luckily not all New Year resolutions have the luxury of being broken.

[Dinadan]

I think that Rough Rider is one of, if not the best, of the cheaper Chinese knives. I also like some Steel Warriors. I have one Steel Warrior that I have carried quite a bit over a few years: I like the pattern so much that I have bought three of the knives with different handle materials.

Steel Warrior

It has stood up to salt water and general tough use. Walk and talk is good: as good as most USA made knives that I have. When it comes to sharpening, I do not think the steel is quite as good as in a new Case or an older Schrade. That is just my subjective opinion.

I only have one of the Taylor Schrade knives, and I am not impressed with it. Here are a couple of photos of the Schrade versus a similar sized Rough Rider. Note the grinds on the secondary blades - the Schrade is just crude compared to the Rough Rider.

Schrade versus Rough Rider

Schrade versus Rough Rider

I had seen photos of other China made Schrades that looked much better, so maybe mine is just a fluke. Here is a link to another thread with some discussion of the Chinese Schrades.
viewtopic.php?f=79&t=49986

[Captain O]

All the geopolitical bombast gets to be a bit old. There is some Chinese that are good, some that are bad. Boker (Taiwan) and Ganzo are quite good. I haven't owned enough Rough Riders to know about their quality (I gifted one). Schrade's fruit vendor knives are fine but have their weak points.

Pakistani stuff isn't worth my time. After the Queen factory closed, I went into mourning.

[TwoFlowersLuggage]

And that's really my point - I own knives by Ganzo, Rough Rider, Sanrenmu, Dicoria & Enlan that I'm very happy with - especially for the very low price I paid. There are well-know brands like Kershaw, Buck, CRKT, Spyderco and many others that are having knives made in China. Anyone that thinks the Chinese are incapable of making high quality products is simply fooling themselves. Of course they can - and there are plenty of well known US and European companies that are falling all over themselves to make sure the Chinese know everything the US & European engineers know about how to make high quality knives. The low quality knives that come from China are produced because those manufacturers simply don't care to make a better quality product. They want to make to the cheapest cr@p that can make, because they know there are consumers that will buy those products. If the Frost knives are cr@p, it's because Frost doesn't doesn't care whether or not they make high quality knives. They have chosen[\i] to make a huge number of low quality knives because that is what they believe they can sell.

As consumers that appreciate high quality knives, I think we have two choices: 1) We can put on blinders and continue to pay higher and higher prices for the fewer and fewer USA produced knives while moaning and complaining about the loss of US manufacturing; 2) We can embrace the idea that we now live in a global economy and demand quality products regardless of country of origin. If we force the brands to produce quality products, they will do it because they will have to. We should not allow a brand like Buck or Schrade to substitute lower quality Chinese knives for high quality USA knives - we should demand the SAME high quality regardless of origin.

[Dinadan]

If we force the brands to produce quality products, they will do it because they will have to. We should not allow a brand like Buck or Schrade to substitute lower quality Chinese knives for high quality USA knives - we should demand the SAME high quality regardless of origin.

That sounds like a good idea to me, but I am a little fuzzy about how we force the brands to produce quality products. Since all they care about is profit, I suspect that a petition will not do a lot of good. Buying only top quality knives will help support the good manufacturers, but there are always going to be bottom feeders, both manufacturers and buyers. Which is what we had when I was a kid in the 1960s and what we have now.

[Captain O]

If we force the brands to produce quality products, they will do it because they will have to. We should not allow a brand like Buck or Schrade to substitute lower quality Chinese knives for high quality USA knives - we should demand the SAME high quality regardless of origin.

That sounds like a good idea to me, but I am a little fuzzy about how we force the brands to produce quality products. Since all they care about is profit, I suspect that a petition will not do a lot of good. Buying only top quality knives will help support the good manufacturers, but there are always going to be bottom feeders, both manufacturers and buyers. Which is what had when I was a kid in the 1960s and what we have now.

As it was in the beginning, it still is today.

[TwoFlowersLuggage]

You are correct (of course) - we have no leverage other than where we spend our money. I guess I was being a bit grandiose - thinking that the greater population of knife buyers could be swayed to purchase low-cost *quality* knives over the "cheap" (junk) knives. I do think it starts with a brand's core customer base holding the brand accountable to a quality standard. We should buy a Buck or Schrade just because it is a Buck or Schrade - the brands need to know that we will buy a Rough Rider if it is better quality than the similar priced Buck or Schrade. (I'm picking on Buck & Schrade just because they are the most widely-known traditional knife brands that are currently contracting from China) And Spyderco, Kershaw and the other modern knife makers need to know that we will buy a Ganzo if it is better quality than the Spyderco Byrd or imported Kershaw. We can't let a brand try to foist low-quality on us (the overall "us") just because it has their logo on it.

And there I go again thinking the small population of knife enthusiasts represents a significant portion of their market...

I suppose the real problem is that Amazon, Walmart, Home Depot, Lowes and the other mega retailers are ALWAYS going to have more influence over the manufacturers than the hobbyists. I believe the message "China bad, USA good" is just not going to work anymore. That argument falls on deaf ears when used on anyone in the retail industry that actually has decision making power.

[Old Folder]

Several years back my Cousin bought a Steel Warrior doctor's knife for me at SMKW. I had forgotten about the Rockwell test dimple. Now I remember, at the time, I thought that was kind of hokey.

I believe Steel Warrior still puts these little annoying stickers on their knife blades.
I do not know why they just do not say 440 Steel.
Or perhaps sugar coat it by stating something like: "True-Sharp Surgical Steel" like many Case knives. It is believed to be 425M or 420HC stainless. They tend to have an HRC of around 56-58. Which is identical to Steel Warrior, Rough Rider and most Case knives.