The test of time.

A place to discuss & share pictures of knives made in China.
Edgewise
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The test of time.

Post by Edgewise »

I've been seeing very varied reports on Chinese knife quality, some like RR even better than some U.S. specimens.
What I'm interested in is how these knives stand up to time, the little that they've had so far.
The workmanship may be impeccable but what about the materials?
I have knives from the 1940s with a flawless walk and talk.
I know that the Chinese ones are not that old but, in your experience of the chinese knives that you've had for a while, do you detect any deterioration at all? Any loosening up, wobble etc.?
I have a knife from the 70s with both springs broken just at the stress point where the pin anchors them. The springs had almost no spring in them.
Are the springs of a knife usually of the same steel as the blades?
Without taking into account the cutting ability, how to you rate, a or even predict, your Chinese knife's walk and talk, fit and finish over time?
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XX Case XX
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Re: The test of time.

Post by XX Case XX »

I have a Rough Rider Stockman that I bought about 2 years ago. I've used it quite a bit. So far, it's stayed together pretty well, however, I can easily tell the steel used for the blades is not that good. It will hold an edge, but not for long. I look at it as a "throw away" knife.

The only reason I bought it was because I was on a shopping spree for vintage Case, and I had a few bucks left over so I went to eBay and bought it. I don't carry it because I live in California :roll: but I use it often in my garage for cutting down cardboard boxes and such. I can't say for certain how long it will last as it's not an EDC, but like I said, it's held up so far with no problems. It still snaps good and no wobble. Someone who carries one on a daily basis might have a different story though.

Now that I've gone through this experience with this RR, I probably wouldn't buy another one. I would find a beat-up Case, USA Schrade, or USA Buck for about the same price and use that. There are plenty of good used American Made knives out there on eBay and right here in the AAPK stores so I will go that route from here forward.

Better to put that money back into the hands of Americans than someone else. Just my opinion is all.

Mike
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treefarmer
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Re: The test of time.

Post by treefarmer »

Mike, you and I are close to being on the same track about American knives. Must have to do with patriotism, even though I'm toting a RR Trapper, it psychologically bothers me each time I put it in my pocket. I have my Case Trappers and Stockmen, my Queens, that I've used for years, layin' they're wonderin' why they are being neglected?
I've only been carryin' the RR for a couple of months and there are issues with it that are irritating to me. Some handle pins are a little bit proud and that just isn't right, no big deal, but it still ain't right! Had to file down some sharp, very sharp edges from the tangs, behind the kick, both blades. Some discoloration is occurring in the handles, little things, yes but all this is in the first month or so of this knife's life. So far the walk and talk is great and it takes a good edge that needs tuning like most other knives I've used. I've dressed two deer with it, the 1st completely with out touching the blade to sharpen it. Regular knife duty, card board, vines, whatever hasn't seem to slow it down.
Time will tell, Mike, if I can hold out using this one. ::undecided::
On a side note, I did open my Christmas gifts with an American made Case! ::tu::
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QTCut5
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Re: The test of time.

Post by QTCut5 »

Great question.

Speaking very generally about my experience with products made overseas...40 years ago anything labeled "Made in Japan" was considered to be substandard cheap crap. After a number of years, however, for whatever reason, Japanese imports improved significantly and began to gain respect. Then for a period of time products carrying the designation "Made in Taiwan" and more recently "Made in China" were considered somewhat of a joke (which I assume to mean mainland China but I don't know for sure). With the increasing relocation of USA manufacturing facilities to China along with corresponding American technology, management and oversight of quality control standards, just being labeled "Made in China" is no longer necessarily grounds for automatically dismissing a knife as inferior; in some cases, the Chinese made products are actually even superior to American made products not only in terms of overall quality but also in "bang for your buck" (quality at various price points).

As a prime example, consider the knives made in China by AG Russell. As an avid collector of both brands, I consider Chinese made AG Russell knives to be vastly superior to almost any USA made Queen knife in practically every category and to nearly every degree--and I dare anyone to prove otherwise (before anyone bites my head off, please note that I deliberately used the qualifiers "almost" , "practically" and "nearly" in that statement). I can't make that claim about other brands of Chinese made knives although I have owned many (past tense). It's true they are usually very sharp out of the box, but that's about all I can say to recommend them aside from the obvious low cost.

Also, another important factor to consider, at least for me personally...based entirely on my emotional response irrespective of hard science or comparative empirical evidence, the cheap Chinese imports (Rough Rider, Buck Creek, Steel Warrior, etc.) just lack some indefinable "feel", "aura", "atmosphere", "attitude" or "essence" that is impossible to describe; they just don't touch my soul, quicken my heartbeat or make my blood race. To me, they are simply mundane, entirely and adequately functional but otherwise uninteresting tools in the same category as a screwdriver or hammer. BTW, nothing wrong with them as tools per se, but they lack a certain something that elevates them to the status of "art." But, that's purely from the perspective of a knife collector; I collect knives as functional art, not simply as serviceable tools. (Others undoubtedly purchase and/or collect knives for myriad other reasons such as historical significance or simply as cutting tools, but that's a topic for a different thread.)

As to whether the cheap, imported knives will withstand the test of time, all I can say is, I will probably never know from personal experience simply because I no longer own any and unless/until they speak to me as pieces of collectible art, I have no interest in nor intention of purchasing any more.

Probably not what was expected or desired in response to the OP; but, for whatever it's worth, this is my two cents.

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tongueriver
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Re: The test of time.

Post by tongueriver »

XX Case XX wrote:I have a Rough Rider Stockman that I bought about 2 years ago. I've used it quite a bit. So far, it's stayed together pretty well, however, I can easily tell the steel used for the blades is not that good. It will hold an edge, but not for long. I look at it as a "throw away" knife.

The only reason I bought it was because I was on a shopping spree for vintage Case, and I had a few bucks left over so I went to eBay and bought it. I don't carry it because I live in California :roll: but I use it often in my garage for cutting down cardboard boxes and such. I can't say for certain how long it will last as it's not an EDC, but like I said, it's held up so far with no problems. It still snaps good and no wobble. Someone who carries one on a daily basis might have a different story though.

Now that I've gone through this experience with this RR, I probably wouldn't buy another one. I would find a beat-up Case, USA Schrade, or USA Buck for about the same price and use that. There are plenty of good used American Made knives out there on eBay and right here in the AAPK stores so I will go that route from here forward.

Better to put that money back into the hands of Americans than someone else. Just my opinion is all.

Mike
Mike, you just wrote my post for me, word for word. ::tu::
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TwoFlowersLuggage
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Re: The test of time.

Post by TwoFlowersLuggage »

It seems to me that blade steel would be the easiest thing for a Chinese manufacturer to improve. All they have to do is buy more expensive steel. If they used 8CR13MoV in the Rough Rider knives it would remove nearly all complaints about edge retention. Sure those that are used to super steels on $400 knives would still complain - but there are a lot of knife owners with a Kershaw, Byrd or CRKT in their pocket right now that have no problem using 8CR13MoV every day. Would we really complain if the price of a RR went from from $10 to $15? I don't think so.
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tongueriver
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Re: The test of time.

Post by tongueriver »

TwoFlowersLuggage wrote: Would we really complain if the price of a RR went from from $10 to $15? I don't think so.
It could go to $1000 for all I care.
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Mumbleypeg
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Re: The test of time.

Post by Mumbleypeg »

TwoFlowersLuggage wrote:It seems to me that blade steel would be the easiest thing for a Chinese manufacturer to improve. All they have to do is buy more expensive steel. If they used 8CR13MoV in the Rough Rider knives it would remove nearly all complaints about edge retention. Sure those that are used to super steels on $400 knives would still complain - but there are a lot of knife owners with a Kershaw, Byrd or CRKT in their pocket right now that have no problem using 8CR13MoV every day. Would we really complain if the price of a RR went from from $10 to $15? I don't think so.
The quality of steel used is of little consequence if the steel, regardless whatever it is, is not properly tempered. Tempering is part science, part "art" . Which is why most makers of high quality cutlery consider their tempering process to be proprietary.

No doubt there are cutlers in China that know how to temper steel. Whether the Chinese makers of cheap cutlery care or not is the question. And I'm pretty sure most of their customers don't.

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Quick Steel
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Re: The test of time.

Post by Quick Steel »

A couple of points. I'd like to hear from Delta Boy on this subject as I believe he has been a heavy user and advocate for Rough Riders and secondarily Marbles (China made). His considerable experience would be valuable input.

On the issue of patriotism: I grant this is a sensitive point. I will just remark that I consider AG Russell a true and dedicated patriot.Over the years he has manifested this in word and deed. Yes, I was a little taken aback when he incorporated some Chinese made knives. The superb quality of these imports is now widely recognized. But I suggest that had AG not added some Chinese production, his business may have been very difficult to sustain.His China move was not simply due to a lust for inordinate profits. Do we really need to lose another great cutlery business as we have with Schrade, Camillus, Marbles etc?

To be clear, I have nothing but respect for those choosing only American made products. I understand the choice. But I also can understand those, including myself, who will sometimes purchase a China made knife and who do not consider it a slight against their love of country.

About steel. I know that CAS Hanwei, which makes very fine blades both large and small, became dissatisfied with the uneven quality of steel provided from mainland China. Consequently, Mr. Chen set up his own foundry and made his own proprietary steel to assure the quality he desired. Although blades are produced in China, CAS Hanwei originates and, to the best of my knowledge, continues out of Taiwan, a democratic country and friend of the U.S.
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TwoFlowersLuggage
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Re: The test of time.

Post by TwoFlowersLuggage »

I think it is a bit odd to post "buy american" in a subforum dedicated to Chinese knife manufacturers. There is a big "no more politics" sticky at the top of this page and I think we need to respect the wishes of the mods. All I will say is that this ship has sailed. The Chinese-made knives are here and they aren't going to go away. I think its great that we live in a time and place where we have so many options. We can either help US companies grow into international companies, or we can watch the US companies disappear.
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Re: The test of time.

Post by jerryd6818 »

TwoFlowersLuggage wrote: Would we really complain if the price of a RR went from from $10 to $15? I don't think so.
It's already happened.

Several years ago, shortly before Christmas (maybe 2012 or 2013 but that's just a guess), I noticed a lot of chatter about a new brand of Pacific Rim knife. A few folks were going on about the better than average quality and how inexpensive they were (less than $10) so I jumped up and bought almost a dozen, most from kyknives because he started his auctions at 99¢ with free shipping. The most I ever bid was $10 and I never lost one I bid on. I got them in hand and there was just something about them that didn't resonate with me. I've never been able to put my finger on it but I recall feeling that they were just "less". I've not been able to articulate "less" what but that feeling has stayed with me.

Since then, I've bought a guesstimated 20-30 for various reasons but mostly because "the knife fever" is non-denominational. The cost (now most between $10-$20 and a few over $20) keeps slowly rising, quite similar to the Japanese cars we bought in the '60s-'70s for what was considered then, a very low price. Sixty years later the Lexus (Toyota for crying out loud) is considered a luxury car and costs the same as a luxury car. The same thing is happening/has happened with the Korean cars. Whether it's cars or knives, the Orientals are a very patient people. They are very slowly, at a molasses rate, taking over consumer goods with prices with which we cannot compete until the day when we no longer make anything. By that time, our manufacturing base will be gone and the startup costs will be so steep we won't be able to recover.

I don't consider this political, just factual.
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carrmillus
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Re: The test of time.

Post by carrmillus »

tongueriver wrote:
TwoFlowersLuggage wrote: Would we really complain if the price of a RR went from from $10 to $15? I don't think so.
It could go to $1000 for all I care.
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...... ::tu:: ::tu:: ::tu:: ::tu:: .............
Edgewise
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Re: The test of time.

Post by Edgewise »

To me Chinese knives have always been imitation replicas with a variety of pretty handles, not real knives meant for normal use, so I was surprised to learn that the RRs were coming in for some praise on the forum.
My understanding is that the Chinese advantage is plentiful cheap labour, because they are obviously capable of producing to any standard or quality they are asked to. So I suppose that their knives meet the standard that the companies require of them, depending on factory floor supervision and materials made available.
My concern is not the steel so much as the knife build, because I can sharpen and resharpen but I don't want to have to replace a knive after a few years of normal use, however low the cost.
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Re: The test of time.

Post by SteelMyHeart85420 »

jerryd6818 wrote:
TwoFlowersLuggage wrote: Would we really complain if the price of a RR went from from $10 to $15? I don't think so.
(Toyota for crying out loud).
There are few auto manufacturers at any price point that makes a more reliable vehicle than Toyota. I've never owned one (yet), but I daily drive a company Taco with over 260K, and it just keeps going....oil, brakes and tires, rinse, repeat. Not a "luxury" truck/ knife, but, definitely a good value. Yeah, patriotism and all that....we'll never again be where we were. If ya'all insist on spending 10X the amount for a collection, that's fine. In the long haul, a knife as a tool (to be used as such) at a price point far below the old American/ English/ German brands is a good value, and keep the keepers in the safe....my opinion is worth every cent ya paid for it ::tu::
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Re: The test of time.

Post by espn77 »

Everyone has there own thoughts on collecting. A huge thought process of mine is. When I die do I want my kid to have a bunch of Chinese knives to get rid of or a bunch of vintage American made knives to get rid of???
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Re: The test of time.

Post by Dinadan »

I have owned and used some China knives for at least a decade. I have a couple of AG Russell China knives that I have carried and are fully as good as any American knife I have that was made in the same time frame. I have a slew of Rough Riders and Steel Warriors that have been good knives for the price paid. I do vary my carry so that no knife I have bought in the past decade gets the everyday use that my knife used to get when I only had one carry pocketknife.

I agree with the opinions stated above that the steel, or the temper of the steel, in some China knives is not so good, so they do not hold an edge as well as some knives. I have had only one knife fail due to poor steel, a Rough Rider fish knife where one of the springs broke while it was in the tacklebox. I have a Klass fish knife that the scales were so fragile that one broke when I dropped the knife on the floor. In both of those knives I thought that the material was inferior. But by and large, my China knives have held up about as well as to salt water and cutting as have as my American made knives.

Since Edgewise specifically mentions the good walk and talk of old knifes I will make a comment on it. I have several Schrades and Colonials and such like with good walk and talk after several decades. I have several recently made GECs, Case and Queens and they have very variable walk and talk, from not much to just right to nail breakers. In that respect my China knives actually have been at least as consistent and good as the USA made knives. After a few decades - who knows?
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TwoFlowersLuggage
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Re: The test of time.

Post by TwoFlowersLuggage »

Different strokes for different folks. If I could buy all the knives I want as vintage Case in pristine condition, I would have no reason to consider buying a RR. That isn't the world I live in. If I want stag or buffalo horn & abalone knives in a variety of patterns, then I need to either search for many years until I can find a clapped-out, rust-bucket Case I can afford, or I can go to SMKW and order a couple of RR a month to enjoy while I'm searching for a herd of unicorns.
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Re: The test of time.

Post by Mumbleypeg »

TwoFlowersLuggage wrote:Different strokes for different folks. If I could buy all the knives I want as vintage Case in pristine condition, I would have no reason to consider buying a RR. That isn't the world I live in. If I want stag or buffalo horn & abalone knives in a variety of patterns, then I need to either search for many years until I can find a clapped-out, rust-bucket Case I can afford, or I can go to SMKW and order a couple of RR a month to enjoy while I'm searching for a herd of unicorns.
I'm glad you like your Chinese-made knives. Truly I am. Not being sarcastic at all. But the hyperbole about searching "for many years until I can find a clapped out, rust bucket Case I can afford" is a bit much. The fact is a very good quality used American (or European) made knife can easily be found for a very reasonable price.

There's a lot of ground between a "vintage Case in pristine condition" and a Chinese RR. The former may cost you over $100 but with reasonable care will last your lifetime, and be handed on to your heirs. The latter, well I guess that was the question raised by this thread. ::handshake::

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TwoFlowersLuggage
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Re: The test of time.

Post by TwoFlowersLuggage »

I like all my knives - both foreign and domestic - that's probably one of the big reasons I have to limit my budget... :wink:
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Re: The test of time.

Post by deltaboy »

I got tons of USA MADE Knifes, I started buying RR after seeing them and enjoying their price point!
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Dinadan
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Re: The test of time.

Post by Dinadan »

I have not had any Chinese knives for more than a decade so I have no knowledge about what they will be like in fifty years. I have had one Rough Rider fail due to the spring breaking. One day I reached in my tackle box for my RR fish knife and noticed the blade was partly open and a piece of the spring was laying next to the knife.

That is the only actual failure I have had with a China knife. I have kept another Rough Rider in my tacklebox for several years and it has resisted corrosion from salt water pretty well, about like my Case fish knife. Probably a lot of China knives will not fare well because they are so cheap that people like me stick one in the tackle box or tool box where they would not put a knife that costs five times as much. Just in case I forget my Case, or want to do something that might damage my Case.
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Re: The test of time.

Post by deltaboy »

Some of mine are almost 10 years old but I rotate what I carry every week and sometimes I trade out 2 times a week so none of mine get used as much as if I used to get one and carry it till I lost it or broke it!
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Re: The test of time.

Post by deltaboy »

The key to any knife is maintenance!
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Re: The test of time.

Post by Steve Warden »

deltaboy wrote:The key to any knife is maintenance!
True to a point.
There comes a point when the cost of maintenance exceeds the cost of replacement. The cheaper the knife, the sooner that point arrives.
Take care and God bless,

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Re: The test of time.

Post by Phaeton »

TwoFlowersLuggage wrote:It seems to me that blade steel would be the easiest thing for a Chinese manufacturer to improve. All they have to do is buy more expensive steel. If they used 8CR13MoV in the Rough Rider knives it would remove nearly all complaints about edge retention. Sure those that are used to super steels on $400 knives would still complain - but there are a lot of knife owners with a Kershaw, Byrd or CRKT in their pocket right now that have no problem using 8CR13MoV every day. Would we really complain if the price of a RR went from from $10 to $15? I don't think so.
Guilty as charged, before breaking the tip off removing a staple, my EDC splinter/gent's knife was Williams and Henry ZPD189 buttonlock. The H1 Nitrogen steel at RC64 in my Spyderco SALT (Japanese) is a disappointment to me, I am guessing bad tempering or a bad mix of steel.
M390, Elmax, and CV20 in my larger folders. One is European, the rest are made in the USA. Fixed blades are also American.

Except for swords, one American sword, one Japanese sword, fourteen Chinese swords.
China won this contest, dollar for dollar nobody even came close. I do active martial arts with the swords, out of the sixteen, only five ended up suitable for hard target (bone) cutting, four Chinese, one American. The geometry of the blade is fully as important as the edge, this is on the personal skill of the worker. Firm standards and quality control ensures first quality regardless of country.
This being true, I am really sure crappy swords are also made in China, however, Hanwei makes excellent functional swords along with their less expensive hang on the wall models.

Without hands on examination before purchase, I am wary of any knife from any country. I do not buy on ebay.
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