A. G. Russell Knives

[wazu013]

I love A.G. Russell and his wife to death but he has really gone to the other side with his product line. You can either buy a $200-$400 - 3" Hen and Rooster or a Cattaraugus made in China for an unreal price point for a Chineese made knife. Plus he hits with some American customs for Crazy money. After he describes some of the Chinees knives you would think that they had some special material over there but we all know the special material is the 14 year old Hafter working his butt off. It is a shame that American craftsmen can't live on $80 bucks a week, or is that a month? The business he is in has forced him to do it. Some of his knives have been sitting around for 30 years or longer. I will not ever forget the look on the faces of the Men from Trico when they took their last decent paycheck and that was for packing trucks with their machinery bound for China. It's all the same. I for one will miss him and his catalogs when he finally does throw in the towell. I am sorry I driveled on like this but It was hard for me to find a job at 59 years old and all I knew was how to build one heck of a windshield wiper.

[Miller Bro's]

Trico went out of business??

[Phil Gibbs]

I hope my comments here do not offend; I have utmost affection for the integrity & cutlery expertise of this Forum.

In the interest of full disclosure I worked at Camillus Cutlery Company for 27 years, & I currently work for A.G. Russell.

In this, & several recent threads here, there has been significant discussion regarding A.G. Russell having knives made in China.
I believe that this is, to be honest, more than just a Cutlery topic; it is a political, financial & social topic too.

I understand many of the painful realities that face us all.
My Grandfather in England was wounded 4 times & lost 3 brothers at The Somme in WW1.
To his dying day (in 1987) he never so much as sat in a German car, let alone bought one!
I lost a job & a pension & so much more when Camillus closed.
In my humble opinion it is totally reasonable to personally not want to purchase a product from a particular country; when feasible. I do it too.

I just feel the need to address a couple of statements that have been made that I believe are misinformed.

I have been very fortunate to have visited many Cutlery Factories around the world.
I have visited many facilities in China.
You know a funny thing they all have in common?
They have Knife Makers in them!

I can honestly tell you as FACT regarding the Chinese Cutleries I have visited:
1. They do not employ child labor!
2. They do not work for a bowl of rice; the skilled ones are in great demand & it is not uncommon for a Cutler to move to a different Factory for a better deal!
3. Chinese Factories are not owned by the Chinese Government.
4. They are very proud of what they do.

As to the Stick that some believe A.G. deserves for daring to have his knives made in China; well don't be concerned, I doubt it hurt much more than the Stick he took in the late 60's & early 70's for daring to have his knives made in Japan!

But the real truth is no one loves the American knife business more than A.G.!
He does business with every American Factory he can.
A.G. even has knives made for him by Factories that don't make knives for others!!
When A.G heard that Camillus was in trouble, he called to increase his orders!
He also currently does business with Cutlery Companies in Europe, Japan & Taiwan.
All of the designs he first took to China were ones our American makers passed on.


A.G. Russell is on a constant quest for High Quality Cutlery, where ever he can find it.
He always wants to improve the design & quality of his knives.
The Chinese were used to producing the cheapest knives as possible; A.G. has challenged them to quality, not quantity & price. Some of the Companies have risen to that challenge!
As is true at all the other Cutleries on the planet, higher quality & lower volume consistantly produce seismic pricing increases!
Are $60-$90 Chinese knives a leap of faith? No Doubt!
But A.G. & Goldie were bold enough to find out.

I am personally very proud to have been involved in the development of these knives, as well as grateful for having the opportunity to consider some of those Chinese Cutlers as friends!

Thank you for the opportunity to speak my mind.

[troyl2]

phil im assuming u were in some management or design area at camillus

[wazu013]

Trico didn't go out of business in fact they are very succesful. They have plants in North America, South America, Europe, Australia and Asia. They call it bringing their products closer to the world marketplace. They just walked away from the city of Buffalo, N.Y. for a more reasonable work force (cheaper) in another country in North America where the windshield wipers are bullet proof. No taxes and total cooperation from local government couldn't help keep them. Now they are in countries where it's elderly workers sit along the walkway sharing a cigarette and talk about taking a vacation in America. Now we can have a little fun with Buffalo where the people are it's greatest product mainly because they have lost everything but their pride and a little snow.
I don't blame A.G. and Goldie fror doing what they had to do to survive. I remember the statement he made in his catalog when he said he was being forced to compete with the world market too. He does put quality up near the top of his business plan right under eating and surviving. His knives are some of the best ever made in China. To bad we have to pay for it with our chance to eat and survive. This is America and we can adjust our skills. When the world vacations here we can wait on them.

[chetr1200c]

nice post there phil. but knowing the prices that come out of that country. i am sure a g could have dropped 40% off his price and still made a profit. at least it made me think twice and buy that a. g./ camillus made granddaddy barlow.

[vikingdog]

Off topic post removed.

Phil
AAPK moderator

[philco]

YOUR ATTENTION PLEASE

When RobisonsRme.com started this thread he stated his wish that this not become another political debate. Once again that is what it has become. If you gentlemen can't respect the original poster and keep politics out of the discussion, simply do not post because I fully intend to delete or edit every political post made as being off topic. If you wish to rant and rave about how bad Chinese made knives are or what politically evil folks they are who make them feel free to do so on your own thread in the OFF TOPIC DISCUSSION forum.
I do not intend to let a few people continually hijack every thread that mentions a knife made in China.

Phil
AAPK moderator

[chetr1200c]

i agree 100% phil. my statement wasnt political in the least. i reffered to prices that rough rider and steward taylor are asking for thier knives made in that country. a.g. is asking just a tad too much, or i would have bought that sow trapper

[robinetn]

I don't think that any of us are surprised that A.G.R.'s prices for any knives of any name made in any country far exceed most other similar dealers prices for similar products .

Bob R.

[Phil Gibbs]

phil im assuming u were in some management or design area at camillus

Yes, I was extremely fortunate to have been a design engineer at Camillus.

[Phil Gibbs]

nice post there phil. but knowing the prices that come out of that country. i am sure a g could have dropped 40% off his price and still made a profit. at least it made me think twice and buy that a. g./ camillus made granddaddy barlow.

Yea, that Granddaddy is a beauty!

In all due respect, "knowing the prices that come out of that country" does not relate much to the discussion at hand.

We asked them to do things they had never done before.
We asked them to do operations they had never heard of.
Many of our requirements forced them to use outside contractors for a single manufacturing step.
A.G.'s almost compulsive desire to put the absolutely largest blade possible in a folding knife frame results in such painful manufacturing tolerances, that many of our blades are actually cut by tooling machine shops using wire EDMs!
We actually have to ship some of the materials to them too!

Please do not get me wrong, your statement is mostly valid.
I have been in the knife business long enough to know what almost all of the prevalent pricing is.

However, I am confident I could buy 1000 gas station quality 3 blade stockman knives for far less than the cost of 1000 AGR Sunfish Lockback blade blanks only!

Then of course those blade blanks require:
Nail marks milled into both sides.
Shipped to AGR certified Heat Treatment facility.
Double disc ground for thickness control.
Machine ground.
Hand ground.
Hand polished.
Multiple laser etches.........

Then add about 25 more pieces to make a knife............

[philco]

Post edited to remove inflamatory and inappropriate content.


Phil
AAPK moderator there was no inappropriate or inflamatory comments on this post apparently philco is a china made knife lover who secretly wants to market his own brand of chinese made knives

I have no secret agenda. I do have a store here on AAPK that just opened yesterday and in that store I do have some Chinese made knives for sale. No secret to that, and I will tell you that my offering these knives for sale has not one thing to do with the way I am handling these anti Chinese knife rants. The slim amount of profit I might achieve on such sales would most certainly not sway my views on the subject. I took this stand well before I even had a store here. Simply put I don't like folks being bullied here on these forums and as long as I'm a moderator here I intend to do what I can to keep it from happening.

What I am attempting to do is put a stop to members who attack every time someone mentions a knife made in China. It is intimidating to those who are on the recieving end and it creates a hostile environment here on AAPK that does not need to exist. This sort of thing has gone on quite a while here and seems to be getting worse. I have consulted with both Orvet and Bryan and have their support in my efforts to rein in this continual pattern of unprovoked verbal assaults on anyone who shows an interest in Chinese cutlery.

Phil Stevens
AAPK moderator

[trey]

Keep up the good work, Phil. These rants are also on tool forums.

I think the AG Russell knives are nice but I do wish they were American made.
I'm not anti anybody, just pro American. I would rather talk knives than
politics here.

[orvet]

First, my apologies to Phil Gibbs and the rest of our members who were trying to have a meaningful and intelligent conversation about some beautiful AG Russell knives.

I did not see everything that was said in this thread as I only found it this afternoon. What I saw really upset me! So far, the disrespectful tirades of one individual has costs that person the privilege of their membership, which includes the privilege of posting on AAPK.

Folks, you all know where I stand on the issue of respecting other members; disrespect, name-calling, insults and other such nonsense will not be tolerated while I am the Administrator for AAPK!

My apologies to all AAPK members who had to endure yet another boring tirade from someone saying the same things that had been said a dozen times before. I don't care where anyone stands politically, socially, religiously or philosophically. I don't care what anyone here thinks about importing knives from China. It really doesn't matter. What matters is that our members can interact in a responsible and adult manner without name-calling, insults or just plain bad manners.

Getting along with people different from oneself, who may hold views different from yours, but still being able to interact with them in a meaningful and pleasant way is the mark of a mature individual. You don't have to agree with everyone, you don't even have to like them; you only have to keep your interactions with them pleasant, while you're on AAPK. Treat them respectfully, as you would wish to be treated and there will be no problem. Engage in rude or disrespectful tirades, name-calling and other such behavior will result in the offending person or persons losing the privilege of their membership at AAPK. If you need to vent about knives that were made in other countries you may do so respectfully in the General Off Topic Discussion forum. If that is not adequate to deal with the angst you have on the subject matter than please feel free to exercise one of the following options:

1-Say nothing. We all have our own opinions on most things in life. This is fine. We are free to hold any opinion we want. It does not mean you are free to regurgitate your vitriol on anyone who dares to hold a different opinion.

2-Feel free to join another forum that shares your views and will tolerate your attitude. There is probably one somewhere if you look hard.


We at AAPK take great pride in the friendliness of our members. These disrespectful tirades will not be tolerated. 99.9% of our members are friendly and welcoming to new members. It is that 0.1% who are making the AAPK experience unpleasant for others. This will not be allowed to continue.

Membership in AAPK is a privilege not a right. You earn the privilege to keep your membership by treating your fellow members with respect. Failure to do so may result in the loss of membership.

Now, play nice and everybody back in the pool!

Thank you,
Dale Vincent
AAPK Administrator

[ringergary]

Well said Dale, I thought American's and us Aussie's have fought for generations for freedom , which includes freedom of speech. Everybody has a right to express their opinion, '''but'' keep it respectful. cheers Gary..

[chetr1200c]

right on dale, we are adults and should act like adults..i agree to disagree,, but in a civil manner....

[orvet]

right on dale, we are adults and should act like adults..i agree to disagree,, but in a civil manner....

At least some people get it!

Guys, this is all we have been asking; consideration for the person who may have a view different from you and to treat them respectfully.

I thank you, Bryan thanks you, Phil and the rest of the moderator team thank you!
It makes our (voluntary) jobs much easier.

Kudos!

Dale

[glenn]

Got Round Table?

[theblindog]

Bryan, Phil, Dale, and all the mods, thank you

[philco]

Got Round Table?

It won't be much longer now glenn.

[edgy46]

Thank you Dale Phil and all the others who help keep AAPK the friendly place to talk and show knives.
There are topics and forums here that I don't care for. Tactical knives for instance do not interest me, but others of US do like them. They do not need my disaproval or aproval, just my silence. The us was capitalized and underlined to emphasize that we as a group should respect the feelings and opinions all members.
Remember our reputation as the friendly knife site and that knives are more important than politics!

[orvet]

Remember our reputation as the friendly knife site and that knives are more important than politics!

Well said Bill!
Thank you!

[RobesonsRme.com]

As the originator of this thread, I feel obligated to update everyone on the subject matter.

The "cocbolo" handled "gunstock" jack arrived yesterday and needless to say I am not a happy camper.

I should have listened to all the sage advice offered earlier.

The knife is diminutive in size. The fit and finish are horrible. There is zero snap to the blade's opening and closing.

I strongly advise all to avoid these knives.

Photo below. Left click to make it look as large as it was purported to be.

Charlie Noyes

[basser5]

LMAO , Now thats funny!