Fixed Blade Hunting Knives ID help

[tinroof]

Found the shorter knife on EBay a while back, and the second in a local Gun & Knife show today. Both have been treated poorly but seem worth a place in my closet, if I can clear some of the grind marks. The handles are in good condition and are brothers of the same generation, so they cellmates. No model # on either knife; KA-BAR on tang stamp -- the longer knife has KA-BAR (only) and the shorter has a second line (though it has bee mostly ground off) - starts with Reg US - so that likely means 1927 - 45 date. On the back side, they both show "Union Cutlery Co and OLEAN NY. However I have read in someone's posting that the stamping of "UNION Cutlery and OLEAN NY" was dropped in 1943,I think ?? Appreciate the help to fill in some history if you can.

[1967redrider]

That shorter knife looks a heck of a lot like a Marble's Woodcraft.

[Modern Slip Joints]

The 6" blade's fuller reminds me of Marbles more than the 4 1/2" blade does but I'm not that familiar with Marbles knives. I'd prefer the 4 1/2" blade for a user.

[zzyzzogeton]

I believe that the top/shorter knife is a model 472 and the longer one is a 471. The shorter knife's fiber ring pattern "appears" to match the 472s of the late 1920s (comparing to the 1928 hardware store catalog ad I have saved that touts it was "designed for the Boy Scouts".). I believe, based on ad pictures depicting fiber ring patterns, that the 471 is from the 1930s.

The way I understand it, ---
KA-BAR first appears in 1923.
The KA-BAR only stamp came before KA-BAR / Olean NY stamp.
Union Cut Co. was dropped around 1943, maybe earlier.
KA-BAR became Kabar around 1953.

Did you check the guards for stamps? Many of the Kabars with those fiber ring handles have the model #s stamped in the guard.

Comparing the 472 with the Marbles Woodcraft listed on the same page of the hardware store catalog, while kinda similar, the Marbles Woodcraft blade has more upward curve to it that the 472.

[tinroof]

You are correct, the shorter knife does have a model # on the finger guard -- 472-5 and a almost 4.5 inch blade. Also the larger one does not have a number on it's guard - the 471 and a 5.75 blade. You said the 471 was from the 30's, however it is with the one line tang stamp of KA-BAR as well as Union Cutlery on backside.
You mention a 1928 catalog ad of these knives. Do you have a copier to image that ad and send to my email somehow that I can add to my file?
Thanks for the history of my treasure finds, being near century old and still worth keeping.

[1967redrider]

A Woodcraft has way more belly to the blade, I just thought maybe use and sharpening could have taken some of that away. Cool knives regardless!

[zzyzzogeton]

You are correct, the shorter knife does have a model # on the finger guard -- 472-5 and a almost 4.5 inch blade. Also the larger one does not have a number on it's guard - the 471 and a 5.75 blade. You said the 471 was from the 30's, however it is with the one line tang stamp of KA-BAR as well as Union Cutlery on backside.
You mention a 1928 catalog ad of these knives. Do you have a copier to image that ad and send to my email somehow that I can add to my file?
Thanks for the history of my treasure finds, being near century old and still worth keeping.

PM me an email address and I'll send you the jpg I have on my computer already.

[tinroof]

I hope this post is not too far gone to get another question. The 1928 hardware store catalog is a definate link to these knives, definate description and blade deminsions. Given that "the name of the game" in competitive marketing is to produce a new design and variety of a knife that was sold last year, obivously we have that many variations as collectibles -- and the struggle for us to sort out history. HOW ELSE COULD WE HAVE SO MUCH FUN !! I have wondered if other knives (of this style / generation) were produced by Ka Bar. It would be quite a picture to know the entire family. I now have 2 as above post, maybe someone has a group picture - or a list of others ??
Thankfully that is the function of AAPK and our membership as a resource to assist each other.

[steve99f]

A member here, gunsil, is a walking encyclopedia on these old Union Cutlery and Kabar fixed blade knives. Only two bits I can add to what has already been said is that the 471 model name is Pathfinder and I believe the 472 is a Trader. The Trader pommel tells you it is the older of the two, gunsil calls it the blob pommel I think. I've recently started collecting these and have learned a bunch from gunsil, ZZ and others.

That style of leather handle is so cool, it's hard not to buy them when you run into one. And the stag they used to use is beautiful.

The tough thing to find is catalogs, ads anything with information. There are some repo UCC catalogs, one has 4 fixed balde models in it, pre 1923 and the other is somewhat later and has no fixed blade knives in it. Keep an eye on ebay, they come up.

Great pickups tinroof, sounds like you are hooked too!

[tinroof]

Absolutely right, ZZ is THE walking book of knowledge. I am very glad to have access to such a group of collectors that are in our membership. I started buying knives based on appearance, but have now accumulated some history files, some brand name lists of past productions, and of course some mistakes in my buying, --- but also some lucky finds at (maybe) reasonable prices, a few bargains. Don't know if anybody else would agree with my inventory, but I do like to admire them and show them to friends. So to all the AAPK buddies, I say thank you for getting me started and providing some intelligent answers to my learning curve questions.

[Gunsil]

The wide blade skinner shown above's model name was "Trusty", with the KA-BAR trademark, and "Trader" with the Olcut trademark. The Olcuts only came with leather and cell ring handles, the KA-BARs came in about eight handle configurations and two blade lengths. I have a 5&1/2" blade one that is etched "Scout Trusty" and the Olcuts will be etched "TRADER" when in fine condition. Tin, if you look at some of my old posts you will see some amazing KA-BAR hunters I have posted from my collection in the past. Here are a few for your perusal. Top to bottom: Little hunter, little Trading Post, Bearcat, Olcut Traders, Pistol Grip, and three really rare Robin Hoods. Those are the names assigned to these knives in the old KA-BAR brochures.

[Gunsil]

Now for some 72s, man they made a lot of variations. These are celluloid handled ones.

[Gunsil]

Leather handles and fiber handled 72s. This model was called "Trusty" in the old brochures. Model #72, numerical prefixes are for handle material. In other words, a 272 has a stag handle, 472 has a fiber washer handle. The haze on some is from an oil or wax coating, not all are mint, some are extremely hard to find in any condition. I am always looking for near mint to mint ones if anybody happens to know of any in that condition for sale. They were also made in stainless which is also hard to find, stainless ones will be marked so. As ZZZY stated, the more rounded pommels are the earlier knives, the more "mushroom" shaped ones are later. I think the "blob" as I call them pommels were only used for a couple of years. One knife here has a wood pommel with a steel cap, but has a brass guard and KA-BAR Reg USS Pat Off stamp. this indicates the knife was made after the aluminum drives for the war effort but before brass was declared a strategic metal and no longer allowed for use in civilian products. Probably early 1942.

Some wood handled ones, all early, have never seen a wood handled one with the newer pommel.

[Gunsil]

A few stags and a "thistle top" Note that one of the stags is marked Utica Knife & Razor, and carries the "Hunter's Pal etch that many UK&R knives had, it was made by Union for UK&R.

A few 5&1/2' blade 72s, all others are 4&1/2" the longer blade ones are much harder to find than the shorter ones.

I have a few more variations but these were the easy to find ones. The four pin stag is very rare, most KA-BARs used two pins on stag handles. Condition is lacking but it is very rare. Again, if anybody knows of any in near mint-mint condition I am always interested in acquiring fine examples.

[Gunsil]

Found another one, smooth natural bone scales, another very hard to find variant.