Canal Street Lockback ????

Former Schrade President Walley Gardner and principal Joe Hufnagel joined with nine master cutlers to form a group of US craftsmen with over 300 years of combined knife making experience to create Canal Street Cutlery. It was first located in upstate New York where a long and rich tradition of quality knife making dates back to the 19th century. Unfortunately, the company closed its doors in 2015, but not before making some great knives. The brand was resurrected in 2018 as Canal Street Cutlery Co-Op & focused on making very small batches of high quality traditional knives. As a Co-Op, it was owned by the knife makers who worked there. Unfortunately, the business model couldn't hold up & the entity again ceased production.
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philco
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Canal Street Lockback ????

Post by philco »

I spotted this listing on ebay today. It's a lockback knife with a Canal Street shield mounted into the handle. I've never seen one like it and I have my concerns about if this knife is a real Canal Street product or the result of some cobbling. Before I blow the BS whistle on this knife I wanted to check with my fellow Canal Street collectors and see if any of you have seen such a knife from Canal Street.

Here's a link to the listing;

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CANAL-STREET-CU ... Swm7pZxBiD

And here's a copy of the photo on that listing:
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Canal Street Lockback.jpg
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Re: Canal Street Lockback ????

Post by Railsplitter »

I'm suspicious too Phil. The seller claims that the knife was "made special for someone". Why would Canal Street Cutlery only make one and why would they not stamp the blade?

This knife was not part of their line up as far as I know. If that's true then they would have had to make or buy special tooling just for this knife. Seems unlikely.
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Re: Canal Street Lockback ????

Post by americanedgetech »

Perhaps it was made by an employee there for himself or a friend.
That could explain why there is no stamp. BUT that is just a romantic idea. No way to know.
I guess it is too easy to mill a circle, and add a shield/case.

Handsome knife tho.
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Re: Canal Street Lockback ????

Post by RalphAlsip »

I don't buy a lot of Canal Street knives, but I look at a lot of pictures and don't recall seeing this frame before on a CSC knife. If the story is legit I wonder if it might be a Schrade LB7 with a CS shield?
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Re: Canal Street Lockback ????

Post by wazu013 »

It does look like a LB7 frame. It's a tough call Phil.
LB7.jpg
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Re: Canal Street Lockback ????

Post by wazu013 »

If you scroll through the sellers history, he has sold a good number of CS knives.
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Re: Canal Street Lockback ????

Post by americanedgetech »

Not to start a witch hunt but looking at the first image of the "CS" knife... Look at the lighting on the tang bolster, and the pin placement.
You can clearly see a transition in the lighting reflection as if the pin was hammered out, and slightly bent the bolster. I am sure you would not feel it or see it with the naked eye UNLESS the light caught it at the right angle. In this case the lighting does not lie.
Much of what I do is paint, fabrication, body work and light/angles do not lie

I only say this because AFTER the pin is peened in, the bolster is ground, and if it was undisturbed there would be a perfectly flat bolster.
That bolster is not flat. (Insinuating the blade was removed to change or modify)

Someone versed in scaling (autocad/Blender) could prove that to be a Scharade (from the images) or prove it is not.
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Re: Canal Street Lockback ????

Post by KAW »

I just sent Eric (ea42) a PM.... Hopefully he will drop by.... and should be able to put this matter to bed as he use to work there.
'til later....
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Re: Canal Street Lockback ????

Post by philco »

wazu013 wrote:If you scroll through the sellers history, he has sold a good number of CS knives.
I've has some prior contact with this seller. I've seen some factory second Canal Street knives that the seller presented as mint condition new knives when I knew better. The knife that is the subject of this post is what I believe to be the first full blown fake Canal Street I've seen on ebay.
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Re: Canal Street Lockback ????

Post by kootenay joe »

It is an LB7, frame at least is LB7. It is the only 5" LB with the flat 'shoulder' on the front bolsters (where the serial # was placed on the early ones).
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Re: Canal Street Lockback ????

Post by ea42 »

Definitely not a Canal Street knife, we never made one like that, sample or otherwise. Most likely it's an old LB-7 (or 5?) with a Canal Street shield glued in. A lot of the old Schrade commemoratives had the same size round shields. The big military commemorative set comes to mind. I think one of the old Schrade employees (one or two come to mind) who had shieldless Schrade knife popped that shield in to fill the hole. The only lockbacks we made at Canal Street were:

The Pinch (with bolster and without):
Canal Street 10th Anniversary 2.jpg

The Squeeze (with bolster and without):
Canal Street Squeeze.jpg

The Swing Guard:
CS Ram SG_136.JPG
Thanks for the heads up KAW!

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Re: Canal Street Lockback ????

Post by americanedgetech »

I am purely asking this to learn, and hopefully gain more information.

Is it POSSIBLE that an employee of CS modified that particular knife "In House"?
I know my question is subjective but the reality of my question is... are there any tell tale signs that you MAY believe lead to an in house custom? Parts? Scales" Blank blade shape" or is everything wrong with the knife?

I'm trying to learn, and many others (I hope) are as curious as I am.

I asked about why people would fake knives for a LOW dollar knife, and the reply was basically "because they do".
Hi dollar knives I can understand... GREED!

I don't understand greed. If you believe in KARMA, there is no greed.

I hope you all understand my asking, and participating in this thread.
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Re: Canal Street Lockback ????

Post by TripleF »

Was hoping Eric would chime in......because he worked for Canal Street Cutlery.....most of us vets know this, but there's probably quite a few
reading this thread wondering who is ea42?

If he says it's not a Canal Street Cutlery knife, then it isn't.
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Re: Canal Street Lockback ????

Post by wazu013 »

There's your answer Phil.
Thanks Eric ::tu::
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Re: Canal Street Lockback ????

Post by philco »

Thanks Eric and all others who have responded to this thread.
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Re: Canal Street Lockback ????

Post by kootenay joe »

aet, you are hoping that the knife is what you want it to be, talking yourself into it, rather than objectively looking at it.
I think almost every knife collector has done the same. It takes for some of us years of collecting before we can stop our minds from trying to make the knife be what we want it to be.
If you have a Schrade LB7 or a picture of one, compare it closely to this round shield LB. Other than handles, it's the same knife. The blade on this round shield knife is not marked, so is the knife a Schrade USA LB7 or a China made LB7 ?
I don't know of anyway to tell.
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Re: Canal Street Lockback ????

Post by Mumbleypeg »

philco wrote:
wazu013 wrote:If you scroll through the sellers history, he has sold a good number of CS knives.
I've has some prior contact with this seller. I've seen some factory second Canal Street knives that the seller presented as mint condition new knives when I knew better. The knife that is the subject of this post is what I believe to be the first full blown fake Canal Street I've seen on ebay.
With Canal Street out of business and prices for their knives going up, I expect to see more fakes showing up. Caveat emptor!

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Re: Canal Street Lockback ????

Post by Schradenut »

I, like you Philco have had dealing with the Lady selling the LB7. My dealings have always been positive, and find her most accommodating. However when i saw this knife on 'the bay' this morning, my thoughts went straight to an LB7, and my second went to the price.

What also surprises me is the lack of identification. All the CSC knives i have are stamped "Canal Street" somewhere. This one would definitely have a tang stamp. From what i can see it is only the shied that identifies it as a Canal Street knife.

Knowing this seller over many years i find her to be very honest, and if this knife has been altered then she wouldn't be aware of it, and would be selling it in good faith. When SCS were still in business she brought stacks of knives, and is slowly filtering them onto the market.

For mine it is an LB7 with a succulent set of Stag covers.
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Re: Canal Street Lockback ????

Post by americanedgetech »

Earlier today I contacted the seller thru the Ebay "Contact Seller" feature.

My message was simple... I only want to help, and I directed the seller to this thread.

If this is a true case of mistaken identity the seller will at LEAST have some info that he/she did not have before.
I have no way of knowing if the seller has seen my message (other than a reply which I do not expect).
but at least "I" know that this seller has access to information that may make a difference.

Honest mistakes happen ALL the time, and unless you are a certified, recognized expert at grading knives for auction... mistakes are bound to be more common.

For what it's worth, I hope it helps.
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Re: Canal Street Lockback ????

Post by Railsplitter »

To be fair, the seller states "I was told this was made special for someone" which is probably the truth and a point that I failed to point out when I replied earlier.
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Re: Canal Street Lockback ????

Post by americanedgetech »

I think it is all good.
The "tone" of this thread was very civil.

You all have a nice crew here.
Kudos!
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Re: Canal Street Lockback ????

Post by ea42 »

Sorry folks, I never tried that link, I just took one look at the photo and knew it wasn't a Canal Street. I know the seller personally myself, and I'm sure she wouldn't know that particular knife wasn't a legit CS knife without someone bringing it to her attention, especially if she was told by the person she acquired it from that it was made special, etc etc. I'm also quite certain I know the original owner as well. He worked with us at Canal Street for a number of years, and before that he was the foreman in the LB-7 department at Schrade, so you can imagine how many LB-7's he had. He was a great guy and I'm sure his original intent wasn't to make a CS fake to hoodwink some unsuspecting buyer. Most all the guys I know from Schrade a) have a LOT of knives and b) never sell them. It's usually their kids who wind up being burdened with selling them after they pass away. Like I said it was most likely a Schrade knife in need of a shield and the Canal Street shield happened to fit. It's also very likely the tang stamp was already ground off at Schrade because that's one of the things they did to rejects to insure that they weren't sold as top grade knives. He sold off a bunch of his knives to the seller a few years ago when he got sick and has since passed away. No way of knowing what he said to her about this knife, but it's always possible that he may have embellished it a bit, and with what he was going through at the time I couldn't fault him for it. So that's about all I have to say about it, definitely not Canal Street, likely a repaired Schrade second.

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Re: Canal Street Lockback ????

Post by americanedgetech »

Well, heck!!! ::dang::

That comes full circle to what I asked in the beginning of this thread.

Could someone that worked there have made for it ANY reason? Looks like the old gal is off the hook! ::ds::
I hope she does see the thread, and gets the story. Turns out to be pretty interesting!
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Re: Canal Street Lockback ????

Post by philco »

I sent the seller a message through ebay letting her know the knife was not a Canal Street product and I even informed her that a former Canal Street employee had verified that Canal Street never made that knife. I have not gotten a reply.
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Re: Canal Street Lockback ????

Post by ea42 »

americanedgetech wrote:Well, heck!!! ::dang::

That comes full circle to what I asked in the beginning of this thread.

Could someone that worked there have made for it ANY reason? Looks like the old gal is off the hook! ::ds::
I hope she does see the thread, and gets the story. Turns out to be pretty interesting!
New stag handles are the only thing that could have been added to that knife at Canal Street, everything else is Schrade, period. Those brass scales were made from powdered metal and formed under super high pressure so that there was absolutely minimal work that had to be done to them once they were formed. We definitely didn't have that kind of equipment. And no one there was going to go and mill out two giant chunks of brass in order to make an EXACT copy of an existing Schrade knife either. With the cost of brass what it is that individual would have been brought out back and shot. I already posted pics what we made previously, and none of them come close. If it were made in the shop it would have been done by one of the master cutler/machinists since making a lockback is very exacting work. You need scales, a butt piece, a fly spring that fits the butt piece, a lockbar and blade with a tang notch to fit the lockbar perfectly. You need a fixture that machines the nail mark in the right spot and to the right depth, and another that machines the tang notch and lockbar tab. If that were the case there would have been fixtures and jigs made along with brass master parts so that everything could be copied. We never just made a one off knife of that complexity because someone wanted one made special. Anything made from scratch was done with the intent to make a bare minimum of 300 knives, and in most cases 500.

Eric
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