Case experts needed-Real or Fake 1965-1969 Canoe 52131

[BFORSE]

I just purchased a knife that was advertised as a Case 52131 Canoe, I noticed some oddities when I finally got the knife in hand. My questions for the experts are as follows:

1) Does the shape of the main blade look unused with respect to the tang stamp?

2) Does the shield look like it is in the correct location with respect to the scale pins?

3) There are indications of pins holding the shield on but the actual holes in the liner do not have pins through them and are in-line with the scale pins. Would this shield be pinned to the scales alone? Has this been seen before?

[Mumbleypeg]

It should have a pattern number stamped on it but you haven’t shown a picture, or mentioned it in your post?

Ken

[BFORSE]

It does have the pattern number on the back of the main blade 52131

[Mumbleypeg]

In that case based on the pictures I see nothing wrong with the knife. Just wanted to confirm the pattern number stamp to rule out a re-handle. Recommend you wipe it down good to remove those fingerprints (visible on the blade).

Ken

[BFORSE]

In that case based on the pictures I see nothing wrong with the knife. Just wanted to confirm the pattern number stamp to rule out a re-handle. Recommend you wipe it down good to remove those fingerprints (visible on the blade).

Ken

Well, I had specific questions numbered 1-3 which haven’t been addressed yet.

[herbva]

BFORCE, I compared the pictures you provided to my 131's and the shields are all in the same spot as yours. It's hard to tell from your pictures, but the primary blade appears to be pretty much full size, but I'm not sure about calling it "unused" without seeing better pictures or in-person. From your pictures, it looks like there might be light scratches. I'm not aware of a requirement for the shield pins to be in line with the scale pins, but maybe I don't understand your question.

[Mumbleypeg]

The blade looks fine, the shield looks fine, and I can’t tell you a thing about the pins from the pictures. I wouldn’t call the knife “mint”, but that’s not what I understood to be your question. Sometimes it’s near impossible to see the pins holding the shield inside the blade well. If it’s any comfort to you, I’ve never seen a U.S.A. era Case counterfeited unless someone restamped it as a Tested era knife. I suppose there’s a first time for everything, but I doubt this is it.

If you don’t feel comfortable with it, send it back.

Ken

[BFORSE]

BFORCE, I compared the pictures you provided to my 131's and the shields are all in the same spot as yours. It's hard to tell from your pictures, but the primary blade appears to be pretty much full size, but I'm not sure about calling it "unused" without seeing better pictures or in-person. From your pictures, it looks like there might be light scratches. I'm not aware of a requirement for the shield pins to be in line with the scale pins, but maybe I don't understand your question.

All the ones I’ve seen the shield lines up with the scale pins like this:

My shield on the other hand does not line up with the scale pins and does not have shield pins that go through the brass liner:

Does anyone have this same alignment?

[herbva]

I just checked my 4 -131's and none of the shields line up perfectly with the scale pin heads and all 4 are a tiny bit different with respect to that alignment. But none are nearly as far off as yours is in the second picture. The thing you mentioned that would concern me is the shield pins not going through the liners. That doesn't sound right to me.

[BFORSE]

I just checked my 4 -131's and none of the shields line up perfectly with the scale pin heads and all 4 are a tiny bit different with respect to that alignment. But none are nearly as far off as yours is in the second picture. The thing you mentioned that would concern me is the shield pins not going through the liners. That doesn't sound right to me.

Thank you for taking the time to look at yours. I think it’s odd as well.

Is this a factory issue?

Is this common for case knives before 1970?

Does anyone else have a knife like this?

Was this a re-handle job?

Does anyone know anyone at allaboutpocketknives who could possibly answer these questions?

[XxTestedxX]

If the pins and holes in liners don’t match up it’s been re handled/repaired.

Just my opinion.

The blade and frame look correct

[herbva]

I just checked my 4 -131's and none of the shields line up perfectly with the scale pin heads and all 4 are a tiny bit different with respect to that alignment. But none are nearly as far off as yours is in the second picture. The thing you mentioned that would concern me is the shield pins not going through the liners. That doesn't sound right to me.

Thank you for taking the time to look at yours. I think it’s odd as well.

Is this a factory issue?

Is this common for case knives before 1970?

Does anyone else have a knife like this?

Was this a re-handle job?

Does anyone know anyone at allaboutpocketknives who could possibly answer these questions?

All I can tell you is that I have disassembled and restored many Case knives over the years, and have never seen a single one where the shield pins didn't go through the liners (unless, of course, the knife is more recent and then the shield is just glued on). If you are absolutely certain that the shield pins don't go through the liners, then I would have to assume that it has been rehandled. With that said, it's not easy to see the shield pin heads on the inside of the liners (as Ken mentioned above), unless you take the knife apart. The holes in the liners are tapered on the inside, so that after peening, you can file the peened heads down perfectly flush with the liners. So, what I am suggesting, is that they might be there and you are just not seeing them.

[BFORSE]

I just checked my 4 -131's and none of the shields line up perfectly with the scale pin heads and all 4 are a tiny bit different with respect to that alignment. But none are nearly as far off as yours is in the second picture. The thing you mentioned that would concern me is the shield pins not going through the liners. That doesn't sound right to me.

Thank you for taking the time to look at yours. I think it’s odd as well.

Is this a factory issue?

Is this common for case knives before 1970?

Does anyone else have a knife like this?

Was this a re-handle job?

Does anyone know anyone at allaboutpocketknives who could possibly answer these questions?

All I can tell you is that I have disassembled and restored many Case knives over the years, and have never seen a single one where the shield pins didn't go through the liners (unless, of course, the knife is more recent and then the shield is just glued on). If you are absolutely certain that the shield pins don't go through the liners, then I would have to assume that it has been rehandled. With that said, it's not easy to see the shield pin heads on the inside of the liners (as Ken mentioned above), unless you take the knife apart. The holes in the liners are tapered on the inside, so that after peening, you can file the peened heads down perfectly flush with the liners. So, what I am suggesting, is that they might be there and you are just not seeing them.

I hear what you are saying, but the alignment of the shield and visual confirmation suggest that the shield is either glued in or peened to the scale only.

Even more interesting is that where the brass pins and liners are touching the scales there is a slight green discoloration (verdigris), suggesting this may be factory.

[herbva]

I see what you are saying now about the "empty holes". So, all I can conclude is that someone rehandled this knife at some point and "cheated" by pinning the shield on to the scale before the scale was attached to the frame. Other than the shield alignment and not pinning through the liners, from your pictures it looks like a pretty good job to me. It might just be the pictures, but the rocker pin heads perhaps also look a little bit suspect to me. I can't really imagine why someone with this degree of skill wouldn't just disassemble the knife and pin the shield on properly. The only thing that popped into my mind, and this is pretty far-fetched, is they already had pre-cut stag scales with the shield inlay already cut in, before they started. Maybe they were using some factory reject stag scales that weren't discarded. This would also explain the off-center shield. But it is a stretch.......

[BFORSE]

I see what you are saying now about the "empty holes". So, all I can conclude is that someone rehandled this knife at some point and "cheated" by pinning the shield on to the scale before the scale was attached to the frame. Other than the shield alignment and not pinning through the liners, from your pictures it looks like a pretty good job to me. It might just be the pictures, but the rocker pin heads perhaps also look a little bit suspect to me. I can't really imagine why someone with this degree of skill wouldn't just disassemble the knife and pin the shield on properly. The only thing that popped into my mind, and this is pretty far-fetched, is they already had pre-cut stag scales with the shield inlay already cut in, before they started. Maybe they were using some factory reject stag scales that weren't discarded. This would also explain the off-center shield. But it is a stretch.......

I can see that. Maybe that is exactly what happened in the case factory; the scales were pre-cut for the shields, the pins didn’t line up exactly, Sambar stag was becoming limited at that time and/or they didn’t want to waste the scale so they pinned it on anyway. I say that because I agree, what person would take the time to do everything right except for one thing?

[knifeaholic]

Ok time for me to weigh in since I am the one who sold this knife to BFORSE.

I have owned and sold probably over 200 10 dot and USA stamped 52131 canoes, in addition to the 10-15 XX and Tested stamped examples that I own.

My first thought is that if this particular knife has been altered by installing a new front handle, it is far and away the best rehandle job I have ever seen, comparing it to the many that I have owned, seen, and sold.

It goes without saying (I hope) that when I sell a knife I look it over carefully for any issues, this knife had none, a perfect mint knife, never used, sharpened, or cleaned.

That said, I usually do not look inside of a knife at the shield pins unless I have some reason to think that the knife has been altered.

The only other reason that I examine the shield pins inside of a knife would be for ’78 and ’79 bone and stag handled Case knives to see whether the shield is pinned or glued.

I have seen what appear to be empty holes for shield pins inside of other knives, but not on any Case knife that I can recall.

Solingen Bokers, for example, are notorious for this – for whatever reason for many years after Boker started gluing shields in, they continued drilling a hole in the front liner for the shield.

The only odd thing that I have seen on a Case knife shield installation was on a used USA era 33044 “Birdseye”. This knife had older (not Delrin) yellow handles that had decomposed, leaving the shield pins visible.

I was shocked to find that while there were shield pins, and the shield pins went down to the liner, there were no holes in the liner to accept the pins. So the shield pins were peened and polished off at the holes in the shield and the pins went through the handle, but the pins did not extend through the liner and of course were not peened to the liner.

That was an odd factory error.

So with this knife (assuming that it has not been cobbled/altered) there are two possibilities:

#1 – the pins are in the holes and peened to the liner, but for some reason they ends cannot be seen properly, so it appears that the holes are empty since it is difficult to properly see inside of the knife given the narrow opening. This is possible but unlikely.

#2 – the shield was installed at the factory with pins that were too short to reach and go through the liner holes. The knife went through final assembly and hafting with the pins peened and polished off at the shield level, but not peened/polished off at the liner. The shield would of course still be held firmly in place due to the shield pins fitting tightly in the holes drilled in the stag, so this flaw would never be noticed during final inspection. I believe that this type of factory error would have been likely, due to the hand crafted nature of Case knives in that era, and especially on a stag handle since stag is not of a uniform thickness. Unless a cutler is very careful it would be easy to install a shield with pins that are a bit too short.

Regarding the position of the shield on the handle, that varied as well during those years. Remember there were no CNC machines then, so all manufacturing functions at Case were either done by hand or on conventional machine tools – machine tools that were set up by hand.

On many patterns, the shield position and the positions of the handle pins, as well as the length of the handle as compared to the bolsters, could vary.

The shield installations on stag were especially problematic, as stag is not a nice uniform flat surface. A cutler had to try to find the best spot given the contours of the individual unique stag handle.