Callimus 21 peanut
- garddogg56
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Re: Callimus 21 peanut
Hey, don't let a spell check stop this thread. "Callimus" is worthy of any Mark Twain fan.
Those are very nice classics and not too many around, it seems.
The few on the bay are rather worn out and I was looking forward to a longer thread.
I looked up pyroxylin and it's an unstable celluloid type of plastic which I avoid these days.
I notice that these knives are not called 'peanut' by the manufacturer and I'm guessing the word was first linked to Case.
Those are very nice classics and not too many around, it seems.
The few on the bay are rather worn out and I was looking forward to a longer thread.
I looked up pyroxylin and it's an unstable celluloid type of plastic which I avoid these days.
I notice that these knives are not called 'peanut' by the manufacturer and I'm guessing the word was first linked to Case.
Re: Callimus 21 peanut
Why was the #21 selected for this topic over any other peanut sized Camillus? Is it the best?
- TwoFlowersLuggage
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Re: Callimus 21 peanut
In the 1972 Camillus catalog, the #21 & #22 were called a "Pony Jack".
I don't know whether Case was the first to use the term "Peanut" for a small serpentine jack.
I don't know whether Case was the first to use the term "Peanut" for a small serpentine jack.
"The Luggage had a straightforward way of dealing with things between it and its intended destination: it ignored them." -Terry Pratchett
Re: Callimus 21 peanut
Was there a single blade Camillus pony jack? All there seems to remain is the yellow-jacket. Maybe that's a play on the word jack.
Re: Callimus 21 peanut
#710S, #710BL, #710C and #710YEdgewise wrote:Was there a single blade Camillus pony jack? All there seems to remain is the yellow-jacket. Maybe that's a play on the word jack.
Re: Callimus 21 peanut
Thanks Vit, nice looking knives. Those are called 'peanut' and no longer 'pony jack'.
Do you know when your 21 was made or when Camillus stopped making the U.S.A. peanut?
Do you know when your 21 was made or when Camillus stopped making the U.S.A. peanut?
- TwoFlowersLuggage
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Re: Callimus 21 peanut
If you look at this 1994 Catalog, you will see *both* - the #21 is still shown as a "Pony Jack" and the #710Y is shown as a "Peanut Pen".
http://www.collectors-of-camillus.us/Ca ... -CAT4s.pdf
However, by the 1996 catalog, the #21 is no longer listed.
http://www.collectors-of-camillus.us/Ca ... talogs.pdf
http://www.collectors-of-camillus.us/Ca ... -CAT4s.pdf
However, by the 1996 catalog, the #21 is no longer listed.
http://www.collectors-of-camillus.us/Ca ... talogs.pdf
"The Luggage had a straightforward way of dealing with things between it and its intended destination: it ignored them." -Terry Pratchett
Re: Callimus 21 peanut
Thanks TwoFlowersLuggage, you guys really know how to dig up info.
So far all the peanuts on this thread, old and new seem to have three visible pins but I remember seeing a picture of a 21 with only the center pin showing.
Interestingly my own 77 and 72 both only show the center pin. Any easily available explanation or am I being too picky?
So far all the peanuts on this thread, old and new seem to have three visible pins but I remember seeing a picture of a 21 with only the center pin showing.
Interestingly my own 77 and 72 both only show the center pin. Any easily available explanation or am I being too picky?
- jerryd6818
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Re: Callimus 21 peanut
Easily explainable. In about 1976 they stopped pinning the Delrin handles on and went to a post formed in the handle that was inserted through a hole in the liner. You can see the end of the post if you look at the liner down in the blade well.Edgewise wrote: Interestingly my own 77 and 72 both only show the center pin. Any easily available explanation or am I being too picky?
Forged on the anvil of discipline.
The Few. The Proud.
Jerry D.
This country has become more about sub-groups than about it's unity as a nation.
"The #72 pattern has got to be pretty close to the perfect knife."
--T.J. Murphy 2012
The Few. The Proud.
Jerry D.
This country has become more about sub-groups than about it's unity as a nation.
"The #72 pattern has got to be pretty close to the perfect knife."
--T.J. Murphy 2012
Re: Callimus 21 peanut
I've been trying not to be lazy and doing my own research but without success.
If the handle pins were replaced by liner posts back in 1976, why was such a cost saving measure not applied to the peanuts in Vit's picture as well as later delrin handles?
If the handle pins were replaced by liner posts back in 1976, why was such a cost saving measure not applied to the peanuts in Vit's picture as well as later delrin handles?
- jerryd6818
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Re: Callimus 21 peanut
Forged on the anvil of discipline.
The Few. The Proud.
Jerry D.
This country has become more about sub-groups than about it's unity as a nation.
"The #72 pattern has got to be pretty close to the perfect knife."
--T.J. Murphy 2012
The Few. The Proud.
Jerry D.
This country has become more about sub-groups than about it's unity as a nation.
"The #72 pattern has got to be pretty close to the perfect knife."
--T.J. Murphy 2012
Re: Callimus 21 peanut
Ironically Camillus made knives for Imperial, Schrade, Case and most of the black handled Bucks were made by Camillus.deltaboy wrote:Thanks I rarely saw this brand growing up. We had Imperial, Schrade, Case, Buck and Queen.
You probably saw plenty of them, just ones Camillus made for other brands.
Dale
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- TwoFlowersLuggage
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Re: Callimus 21 peanut
Just to add to your confusion - - here's a Remington single-blade peanut that was certainly made by Camillus, probably in the 1990s or early 2000s - and probably at the the same time the 710 was being made. It has a single pin showing, and you can see the outline of the pivot pin on the front bolster.
I have a theory - pure conjecture, not based on ANY evidence - Camillus was one of largest contract manufacturers in the US knife industry. I have no doubt that if a customer said "I want 3 brass pins showing", then that's what Camillus would build. If the customer said "I don't care how many pins are showing, just give me the lowest cost", then Camillus would salute smartly and march to the right. Now, if you are a contract manufacturer, and your customer is paying to have an assembly line set-up, then why not produce some of your own brand knives after the contract run has been completed? Change the blades to Camillus and maybe put on a slightly different handle (or not, see above), and you can have a Camillus 21 instead of a Remington Peanut. Or, if another contract is being run that requires 3 pins, then make a run of Camillus knives 710 after that order.
Just a guess...
I have a theory - pure conjecture, not based on ANY evidence - Camillus was one of largest contract manufacturers in the US knife industry. I have no doubt that if a customer said "I want 3 brass pins showing", then that's what Camillus would build. If the customer said "I don't care how many pins are showing, just give me the lowest cost", then Camillus would salute smartly and march to the right. Now, if you are a contract manufacturer, and your customer is paying to have an assembly line set-up, then why not produce some of your own brand knives after the contract run has been completed? Change the blades to Camillus and maybe put on a slightly different handle (or not, see above), and you can have a Camillus 21 instead of a Remington Peanut. Or, if another contract is being run that requires 3 pins, then make a run of Camillus knives 710 after that order.
Just a guess...
"The Luggage had a straightforward way of dealing with things between it and its intended destination: it ignored them." -Terry Pratchett
Re: Callimus 21 peanut
I guess that theory is good enough for me.
There seems to be no limit to the trails leading through the maze of knife collecting.
There seems to be no limit to the trails leading through the maze of knife collecting.
- jerryd6818
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Re: Callimus 21 peanut
Now you're catching on. I used to think things were cut and dried but during the past 9+ years, I have slowly been disabused of that silly notion.Edgewise wrote:There seems to be no limit to the trails leading through the maze of knife collecting.
Forged on the anvil of discipline.
The Few. The Proud.
Jerry D.
This country has become more about sub-groups than about it's unity as a nation.
"The #72 pattern has got to be pretty close to the perfect knife."
--T.J. Murphy 2012
The Few. The Proud.
Jerry D.
This country has become more about sub-groups than about it's unity as a nation.
"The #72 pattern has got to be pretty close to the perfect knife."
--T.J. Murphy 2012
Re: Callimus 21 peanut
At which point you throw up your hands in despair like me , or roll up your sleeves and rub your hands in glee like you and Orvetjerryd6818 wrote:Now you're catching on. I used to think things were cut and dried but during the past 9+ years, I have slowly been disabused of that silly notion.Edgewise wrote:There seems to be no limit to the trails leading through the maze of knife collecting.
My first suspicion was when I learned that knife patenting was almost non existent.
Re: Callimus 21 peanut
I love my Peanuts , like the Case Peanut the 21 Callimus cuts above it's weight!
Keep Near the Cross.
Re: Callimus 21 peanut
Well TFL,
You did a pretty good job of guessing for “just a guess.”
I know I have posted this elsewhere so I will be brief on it but that is essentially what happened with Remington and Camillus. Tooling for new patterns was expensive, I think Tom Williams sent around $10,000 sometimes more depending on the pattern they’re going to produce. When Remington wanted a unique pattern they would pay for the tooling and then they owned the tooling for that pattern. Camillus could not use that to make anything else but that particular Remington pattern. However if Remington were trying to get by a little cheaper on a pattern they would not insist on ownership of the tooling and let Camillus spend their money to tool up for the run. When Camillus had fulfilled their commitment to Remington the tooling was theirs and they could do with it what they pleased including making nearly identical knives with the Camillus name on them.
You bring up a great point if you’re set up to run a Remington pattern and you finish that run and you know you’re going to need some of the same parts for a Camillus run there’s no point in tearing down and setting up again later just change the die for the tang stamp and change the shield and make the Camillus version of the Remington pattern.
Now Camillus made two peanut patterns, the 21 and the 710. The 21 predates their contract with Remington. There are Camillus #21s with Rogers bone handles. I have one or two in my collection. I see them in the 1946 Camillus catalog.
I see the 710 pattern in the 1992 Camillus catalog offered in four handle finishes. In this instance Camillus may have had the pattern already: I haven’t torn and 21 and a 710 down side-by-side, but I think some of the parts may be interchangeable so this could have been a real easy one to do. You have tooling for the 21 pattern; you take out one blade, retool for the bolsters and you have a single blade version of the peanut. Maybe they sold it to Remington before they used it or maybe they used it then Remington bought the same pattern, it could’ve happened either way.
You did a pretty good job of guessing for “just a guess.”
I know I have posted this elsewhere so I will be brief on it but that is essentially what happened with Remington and Camillus. Tooling for new patterns was expensive, I think Tom Williams sent around $10,000 sometimes more depending on the pattern they’re going to produce. When Remington wanted a unique pattern they would pay for the tooling and then they owned the tooling for that pattern. Camillus could not use that to make anything else but that particular Remington pattern. However if Remington were trying to get by a little cheaper on a pattern they would not insist on ownership of the tooling and let Camillus spend their money to tool up for the run. When Camillus had fulfilled their commitment to Remington the tooling was theirs and they could do with it what they pleased including making nearly identical knives with the Camillus name on them.
You bring up a great point if you’re set up to run a Remington pattern and you finish that run and you know you’re going to need some of the same parts for a Camillus run there’s no point in tearing down and setting up again later just change the die for the tang stamp and change the shield and make the Camillus version of the Remington pattern.
Now Camillus made two peanut patterns, the 21 and the 710. The 21 predates their contract with Remington. There are Camillus #21s with Rogers bone handles. I have one or two in my collection. I see them in the 1946 Camillus catalog.
I see the 710 pattern in the 1992 Camillus catalog offered in four handle finishes. In this instance Camillus may have had the pattern already: I haven’t torn and 21 and a 710 down side-by-side, but I think some of the parts may be interchangeable so this could have been a real easy one to do. You have tooling for the 21 pattern; you take out one blade, retool for the bolsters and you have a single blade version of the peanut. Maybe they sold it to Remington before they used it or maybe they used it then Remington bought the same pattern, it could’ve happened either way.
Dale
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Please visit my AAPK store: www.allaboutpocketknives.com/orvet
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Job 13:15
"Buy more ammo!" - Johnnie Fain
“Evil is Powerless If The Good are Unafraid.” – Ronald Reagan
Re: Callimus 21 peanut
I posted this knife in the Keen Kutter thread but it adds to this conversation too. Here's a bone handled 21 that pre dates the 1946 catalog. It's a Keen Kutter K733-3/4S that (according to Sellens) was produced from 1939-1942. The only difference that jumps out at me distinguishing it from all the other Pony Jacks I've seen is the location of the nail nick on the clip blade.orvet wrote:...The 21 predates their contract with Remington. There are Camillus #21s with Rogers bone handles. I have one or two in my collection. I see them in the 1946 Camillus catalog.
- Jason
- jerryd6818
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Re: Callimus 21 peanut
Oh wow, jxr1197. That one right there is a beauty. You're a lucky duck.
Forged on the anvil of discipline.
The Few. The Proud.
Jerry D.
This country has become more about sub-groups than about it's unity as a nation.
"The #72 pattern has got to be pretty close to the perfect knife."
--T.J. Murphy 2012
The Few. The Proud.
Jerry D.
This country has become more about sub-groups than about it's unity as a nation.
"The #72 pattern has got to be pretty close to the perfect knife."
--T.J. Murphy 2012