Weak snap on a GEC?

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Railsplitter
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Re: Weak snap on a GEC?

Post by Railsplitter »

Mumbleypeg wrote:
Maybe I just don’t know what to look for. ::shrug:: Anyone got pictures of this problem?

Ken
Ken, it looks like this. Just a small ding in the sharpened edge.
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It's easy to miss unless you are looking for it but it's noticeable when cutting certain materials. I cut a lot of shrink wrap at work and if I haven't already discovered the problem, I'll know about it then because the edge gets hung up on the shrink wrap.

The knife above is this Schatt & Morgan #69 Jack.
IMG_3896.JPG
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ken98k
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Re: Weak snap on a GEC?

Post by ken98k »

Well I guess I've got it wrong all these years, thinking a strong mainspring was good thing. I guess I should throw out all my old knives that have alligator snap. :roll:
Anyone interested in a couple hundred junk knives that make too much noise when you open and close them?
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Doc B
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Re: Weak snap on a GEC?

Post by Doc B »

ken98k wrote:Well I guess I've got it wrong all these years, thinking a strong mainspring was good thing. I guess I should throw out all my old knives that have alligator snap. :roll:
Anyone interested in a couple hundred junk knives that make too much noise when you open and close them?
Assuming the tang is configured ideally...it is designed to hit the backspring and prevent this. Often users report...if they notice this...after a couple of sharpenings, the blade no longer is long enough to hit the backspring.
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Mumbleypeg
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Re: Weak snap on a GEC?

Post by Mumbleypeg »

Doc B wrote:
ken98k wrote:Well I guess I've got it wrong all these years, thinking a strong mainspring was good thing. I guess I should throw out all my old knives that have alligator snap. :roll:
Anyone interested in a couple hundred junk knives that make too much noise when you open and close them?
Assuming the tang is configured ideally...it is designed to hit the backspring and prevent this. Often users report...if they notice this...after a couple of sharpenings, the blade no longer is long enough to hit the backspring.
All this time I’ve been thinking that the purpose of the blade kick on a properly built knife was to keep the sharpened part of a blade from contacting the backspring. That click sound you should hear on closing is when the kick hits the backspring, not the blade hitting. ::shrug::

Thanks for the pictures Railsplitter. I haven’t seen that, or just wasn’t looking for it. Maybe it’s more commonly found on modern knives. It also makes sense that it would decrease as the blade is sharpened.

Ken
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Re: Weak snap on a GEC?

Post by kootenay joe »

The tiny divot in the edge of an unsharpened blade does not occur if the spring is a bit soft or if you hold the blade to control closing force. This must indicate that some flex happens with a strong spring, otherwise the kick would stop blade before contact with the spring pivot pin.
It is not anything to worry about. I see it as normal for a certain percentage of slip joints; i.e. not a defect.
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Re: Weak snap on a GEC?

Post by Railsplitter »

I do consider it a defect. The risk of blade rap should be taken into consideration by the manufacturer when designing the pattern. There are at least two manufacturers who agree and have done something about it.

Both A.G. Russell and LoinSteel incorporate a Striker Pin to prevent blade rap. The tang strikes the pin which sits well above the backspring eliminating the risk of blade rap. It's as if they said "Like good snap but hate blade rap? Here, let me fix that for ya".

A.G. Russell Doctor's knife. Note how far above the edge the tang is. Still no blade rap because the Striker Pin prevents it.
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LionSteel Otnat. Same concept.
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These are obviously knives of a more modern variety but it's nice to see that the problem was recognized and resolved by these two makers.
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Re: Weak snap on a GEC?

Post by Sharpnshinyknives »

Railsplitter wrote:I do consider it a defect. The risk of blade rap should be taken into consideration by the manufacturer when designing the pattern. There are at least two manufacturers who agree and have done something about it.

Both A.G. Russell and LoinSteel incorporate a Striker Pin to prevent blade rap. The tang strikes the pin which sits well above the backspring eliminating the risk of blade rap. It's as if they said "Like good snap but hate blade rap? Here, let me fix that for ya".

A.G. Russell Doctor's knife. Note how far above the edge the tang is. Still no blade rap because the Striker Pin prevents it.
IMG_4711.JPG
IMG_4712.JPG
LionSteel Otnat. Same concept.
IMG_4462.JPG
IMG_4457.JPG
These are obviously knives of a more modern variety but it's nice to see that the problem was recognized and resolved by these two makers.
RIck, I have that Dr.’s knife, I will have to look for that. Now I am going to be checking all my knives for that pin.
Given the pictures on that Queen knife above and what it has done to the edge, I would consider that a defect also. It seems to me that the manufacturer built this on sloppy tolerances. It shouldn’t be up to the end customer to have to reduce the blade edge to keep the edge pristine.
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Re: Weak snap on a GEC?

Post by KnifeSlinger#81 »

Mumbleypeg wrote:(BTW, in over 60 years of collecting and examining pocket knives I’ve broken my share of nails, but I’ve yet to see my first example of “the divot in the edge from a powerful closing snap”. If such a thing exists it must not be very common.) ::shrug::

Ken
I've had my fair share of knives where the edge hits the backspring when you close it. A few because they snap so hard, the rest most likely because of improper tolerances. Two of those are 1965-69 cases. I sharpened one of them out, the other one I put a little shim under the kick. I'm at the point now that I can tell when the blade hits the spring by the sound, it has a more dull thud sound when it happens.

I like hard snap on knives when I can get it, the 7-8 range is perfect. They don't have to snap hard as long as they snap well and properly, but I have low tolerance for light snappers.
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Re: Weak snap on a GEC?

Post by ken98k »

Just got off the phone with GEC. They said, "they were intentionally made with a very light pull due to previous complaints from collectors."
So I guess if you're looking for a "USER", buy a Case or a Rough Rider, as Great Eastern no longer produces knives for actual use, only display models for collectors.
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Re: Weak snap on a GEC?

Post by ken98k »

The first lady I spoke with was very pleasant and when I explained what I wanted she said "I don't know but I'll find out". ::tu::
The next person was ready to fight when she got on the phone, and it was obvious right away from her tone, there would be no compromise on her part.
After she explained why GEC knives now have soft pulls, I said "So I guess that means there's nothing that can be done about it, that's just the way it is?" she said YES. ::uc::
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Re: Weak snap on a GEC?

Post by Tsar Bomba »

Personally I have no problem with the snap on my ebony NF or my cherrywood Tidioute. It's not gator-like such as most of my large Barlows but it is definitely snappier than some of my >1970s Schrade folding hunters and they out-snap every large knife I own by Gerber, Buck, or Parker. The slipjoint locks up fine and the open blade won't budge unless you rap the spine. Since I'm not making knife-torture web videos with Lynn Thompson using my GECs, I think I'll be OK. :wink:

I get the complaints, and I do somewhat appreciate the visceral sound and feel of a beartrap snap, but the 97 appears to be a perfectly functional knife for using as intended.

JMNSHO/YMMV/NRNE (no refunds no exchanges)/ETC. :mrgreen:
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Re: Weak snap on a GEC?

Post by kootenay joe »

I agree with this: "the 97 appears to be a perfectly functional knife for using as intended."
How difficult would it be for GEC to do a run of 97's with a thicker spring ? All they would need to do is make some thicker springs, it seems to me.
If anyone here knows Bill Howard how about asking him if another run with a stouter spring might be considered. Could have it's own handle material so right away could be ID'd as "97 stout" and just the FFG which is better for a dedicated hunting knife than a saber grind.
kj
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Re: Weak snap on a GEC?

Post by TravisB »

Mumbleypeg wrote:The #35 Churchill. ::td:: ::td::

Ken
I haven’t had much luck with 35 Churchill’s either, :(
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Re: Weak snap on a GEC?

Post by ken98k »

Tsar Bomba wrote: I get the complaints, and I do somewhat appreciate the visceral sound and feel of a beartrap snap, but the 97 appears to be a perfectly functional knife for using as intended.
JMNSHO/YMMV/NRNE (no refunds no exchanges)/ETC. :mrgreen:
You are correct, only because it is itended to sold to old men with weak fingers who place the knife in a display case where it is left, only to be fondled a few time a year.
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Re: Weak snap on a GEC?

Post by kootenay joe »

The 97 is a good user for those with experience in both knife use and field dressing. If you have not used a folding knife much or if you are not 'at home' field dressing a downed game animal, then the softer spring might mean you knock it to half stop. It is unlikely to go past the half stop.
The importance of experience with field dressing cannot be over-stated in this situation. Field dressing involves quite a few cuts, many are inside the body cavity with limited visibility. If you don't have all the moves 'down', then you could easily bump the blade spine and knock it to half stop.
A stronger spring would be better for those with less experience.
I hope to use my Tidioute 97 this Fall and if i do i will post how it went.
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Re: Weak snap on a GEC?

Post by ken98k »

kootenay joe wrote:The 97 is a good user for those with experience in both knife use and field dressing. If you have not used a folding knife much or if you are not 'at home' field dressing a downed game animal, then the softer spring might mean you knock it to half stop. It is unlikely to go past the half stop.
The importance of experience with field dressing cannot be over-stated in this situation. Field dressing involves quite a few cuts, many are inside the body cavity with limited visibility. If you don't have all the moves 'down', then you could easily bump the blade spine and knock it to half stop.
A stronger spring would be better for those with less experience.
I hope to use my Tidioute 97 this Fall and if i do i will post how it went.
kj
You are going to tell an Alaskan Big Game Guide how to dress out game? :roll:
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Re: Weak snap on a GEC?

Post by kootenay joe »

Quote: "You are going to tell an Alaskan Big Game Guide how to dress out game?"
No.
I was just stating the obvious. If you or anyone is afraid of their 97 closing to half stop when in use then find a slip joint with a stronger spring or better yet, with a locking mechanism.
I am confident that my 97 Tidioute is safe for me to use. This is not about you or the 97 you have.
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Re: Weak snap on a GEC?

Post by Onearmbladejunkie »

I own 5 GEC#97 Allegheny knives. I already paid for the Oregon club knife. The knife show is today , so I will receive my knife very soon. The Oregon Club knife and the American Whittler #97 have the best looking Antique yellow bone. My snaps are fine so far. I have one arm and these #97s were made just for me. I spotted some "S" stamped reduced priced #97s at "The Knife Connection" I bought two #43 "S" knives last year and they work perfect for me. I recommend the American Whittler knife. If you can't find a Sambar Stag #97 , go with the American Whittler with the large hounds tooth. The GEC#97s are the best Hunter knives for one arm me. "NO SUCH THING AS A PERFECT KNIFE !"
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Re: Weak snap on a GEC?

Post by Ajd3530 »

I've been saying for over two months, of only they had produced some with liner locks, there would be no issue. The collectors could get the lockless, and the folks who actually wanted to use theirs could get locks.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the workmanship that went into this pattern. Gorgeous knife, silky smooth action. But the weak spring combined with just how much leverage that big long blade is able to produce, and it pretty much takes it out of the equation for the pattern's intended use, (a folding hunter.) Sent my antique amber, err "autumn gold" back. I'll be keeping the yellow Rose in the collection.
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Re: Weak snap on a GEC?

Post by kootenay joe »

I picked up my Northfield 97 with ebony handles today. Very well made knife with decent spring tension. I would call it a 5.0 - 5.5 for pull strength. I consider the spring tension to be correct for this pattern. My Tidioute maroon Micarta 97 has similar spring tension, just slightly less than the Northfield one.
Based on posts here it seems that some 97's have a weaker spring than others. I doubt it is all just owner preference.
kj
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Re: Weak snap on a GEC?

Post by Open Range-19 »

::tu::
Ajd3530 your comments hit the mark with me. Fit & finish as well as walk-n-talk are fine but pull is weak to piddly on this one I bought. I considered sending it back but read the reviews and figured that's just the way most are on this run. My two cents to add; on folders, heavier pull or liner lock get the nod when reaching up to cut the windpipe when field dressing. On collectors I much prefer a firm pull and loud snap.
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Re: Weak snap on a GEC?

Post by Drukai »

Glad I stayed away from this run..if I buy a big single blade slipjoint I want a 7 or higher pull n snap. That’s a big blade it needs some authority on spring tension. I hate light pulls make em strong it adds peace of mind while I’m using my knives!
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Re: Weak snap on a GEC?

Post by markpreston »

Ive been handling GEC at shows a lot lately and have definitely noticed the pulls getting weaker from about 2016 on. Maybe its just the examples Ive handled, I don't know. The modern Case and GEC seem about the same now on the pull. Older GEC and older case where much snappier. I like a stout snap but the sweet spot is objective to the user. Only knife Ive ever sent back to a dealer was because of almost non existent walk and talk. If I had to pick one brand out of the box that had the most consistent pull would be Victorinox or Wenger.
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Re: Weak snap on a GEC?

Post by Open Range-19 »

I'll 2nd markpreston about those Swiss knives. My Wenger as well as others I've handled and all Victorinox I've crossed paths with, no issues. In addition IMO most Queens-even the late ones (that often have other problems; grind(s), hafting or polishing issues) tend to be snappy. I soured on Case's lazy blades productions from the 90's-unless they were made by Queen (Case Classics).
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Re: Weak snap on a GEC?

Post by Tsar Bomba »

Drukai wrote:Glad I stayed away from this run..if I buy a big single blade slipjoint I want a 7 or higher pull n snap. That’s a big blade it needs some authority on spring tension. I hate light pulls make em strong it adds peace of mind while I’m using my knives!
Now y'all know why I asked for a granddaddy Barlow in the thread about dream future patterns from GEC. :mrgreen:

Oh, and for my final input into this thread: The new #12s seem to have solved the GEC "snap problem." If you consider them to have "weak snap" then I consider your judgment of snap to be misguided at best and outright silly (if not dangerous) at worst.
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