Weak snap on a GEC?

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ken98k
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Weak snap on a GEC?

Post by ken98k »

Just got a new 97 and I'm disappointed with the lack of spring power. :(
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Doc B
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Re: Weak snap on a GEC?

Post by Doc B »

Just saw this reported by another user. Don't know if this is common :(
viewtopic.php?f=56&t=61102&p=722402&hil ... 97#p722402
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Re: Weak snap on a GEC?

Post by Lansky1 »

I bought a possum skinner and had the same reaction - disappointed in what I would consider a lazy snap of the wharncliffe blade. Some GEC patterns just seem to have better snap than others (I have a powderhorn that has amazing snap) ...
pffffft that's not a knife ......... now THAT'S a knife !! Crocodile Dundee

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Re: Weak snap on a GEC?

Post by Mumbleypeg »

The #35 Churchill. ::td:: ::td::

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Re: Weak snap on a GEC?

Post by Tsar Bomba »

I get a single-spring opposite-end knife having snap that isn't earth-shaking, but a large single-blade jack with what should be a substantial spring and the ability to pivot it off the centerline should NOT be hard to make snappy. Heck, every daddy Barlow I own has similar construction and they all sing opening and closing (minus the one or two old imports that came to me damaged or worn).

Hoping the 2 coming to me have at least acceptable snap and safe, useful slipjoint lockup.
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Re: Weak snap on a GEC?

Post by kootenay joe »

Why do you want a stronger spring ? Because you like chipping your thumbnail trying to open blade ? Or because you like the divot in the edge from a powerful closing snap driving the blade onto the spring pin ?
My 97 is fairly easy to open and it has 'snap' into fully open and on closing as well as at half stop. When open it will not start to close on it's own unless i do something 'stupid'.
I have had knives (not GEC) with a spring so weak a light tap on the spine would knock it off the open position. If this is the case with your 97 then the spring is too weak. With my 97 it takes a firm tap to knock it off fully open and then it snaps briskly to half stop position.
There is a range for acceptable spring tension. Mine might be a bit on the soft side but it is still well within acceptable range.
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Re: Weak snap on a GEC?

Post by Mumbleypeg »

kootenay joe wrote:Why do you want a stronger spring ? Because you like chipping your thumbnail trying to open blade ? Or because you like the divot in the edge from a powerful closing snap driving the blade onto the spring pin ?

There is a range for acceptable spring tension.
kj
There is indeed a range for acceptable tension. Breaking a nail trying to open a blade is on one end (too strong) of that range. Having to push the blade all the way into closed position, with no “snap” on closing is on the other end (too weak). Either is unacceptable IMHO. The acceptability in between those extremes is largely subjective depending on personal preference. Personally I prefer a tactile snap as the blade seats when opening, and an audible click when the blade seats on closing.

The GEC #35 Churchill I have, and made reference to in my post, is on the “push the blade all the way closed” end of the range. Came out of the tube from the factory that way. No audible click. Unacceptable. Period. ::barf::

(BTW, in over 60 years of collecting and examining pocket knives I’ve broken my share of nails, but I’ve yet to see my first example of “the divot in the edge from a powerful closing snap”. If such a thing exists it must not be very common.) ::shrug::

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Re: Weak snap on a GEC?

Post by Greenman »

Mumbleypeg wrote:
kootenay joe wrote:Why do you want a stronger spring ? Because you like chipping your thumbnail trying to open blade ? Or because you like the divot in the edge from a powerful closing snap driving the blade onto the spring pin ?

There is a range for acceptable spring tension.
kj
There is indeed a range for acceptable tension. Breaking a nail trying to open a blade is on one end (too strong) of that range. Having to push the blade all the way into closed position, with no “snap” on closing is on the other end (too weak). Either is unacceptable IMHO. The acceptability in between those extremes is largely subjective depending on personal preference. Personally I prefer a tactile snap as the blade seats when opening, and an audible click when the blade seats on closing.

The GEC #35 Churchill I have, and made reference to in my post, is on the “push the blade all the way closed” end of the range. Came out of the tube from the factory that way. No audible click. Unacceptable. Period. ::barf::

(BTW, in over 60 years of collecting and examining pocket knives I’ve broken my share of nails, but I’ve yet to see my first example of “the divot in the edge from a powerful closing snap”. If such a thing exists it must not be very common.) ::shrug::

Ken
Blade “rapping” is almost ubiquitous in Laguioles and various other traditional French folding knife patterns. It is also quite common to find divots in the edges of the blades of a large number of Queen folders. I’ve noticed it rather frequently on the clip blade—and occasionally the sheepsfoot blade—of older (pre-1990s, two backspring) Case ‘47 stockman knives. I’ve also seen the occasional occurrence of blade rap on the spay blade of the Case ‘18 stockman pattern. I can’t speak from personal experience, but my customers have told me that it is a rather common occurrence on recently manufactured Böker trappers and larger stockman patterns. As a longtime collector of traditional French folders, I have learned to never let the blade slam shut on any folding knife—most particularly those with overly strong backsprings.
Josh

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Re: Weak snap on a GEC?

Post by ken98k »

kootenay joe wrote:Why do you want a stronger spring ? Because you like chipping your thumbnail trying to open blade ? Or because you like the divot in the edge from a powerful closing snap driving the blade onto the spring pin ?
My 97 is fairly easy to open and it has 'snap' into fully open and on closing as well as at half stop. When open it will not start to close on it's own unless i do something 'stupid'.
I have had knives (not GEC) with a spring so weak a light tap on the spine would knock it off the open position. If this is the case with your 97 then the spring is too weak. With my 97 it takes a firm tap to knock it off fully open and then it snaps briskly to half stop position.
There is a range for acceptable spring tension. Mine might be a bit on the soft side but it is still well within acceptable range.
kj
As an Alaskan hunter, guide, and outdoorsman, I buy a knives to use. In this case the GEC 97.
When I've paid $106 for a folding hunter knife, I expect to be able to use it for hunting, skinning, butchering, etc. with wondering if the blade is going to close on my fingers.
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Re: Weak snap on a GEC?

Post by Doc B »

ken98k wrote:
kootenay joe wrote:Why do you want a stronger spring ? Because you like chipping your thumbnail trying to open blade ? Or because you like the divot in the edge from a powerful closing snap driving the blade onto the spring pin ?
My 97 is fairly easy to open and it has 'snap' into fully open and on closing as well as at half stop. When open it will not start to close on it's own unless i do something 'stupid'.
I have had knives (not GEC) with a spring so weak a light tap on the spine would knock it off the open position. If this is the case with your 97 then the spring is too weak. With my 97 it takes a firm tap to knock it off fully open and then it snaps briskly to half stop position.
There is a range for acceptable spring tension. Mine might be a bit on the soft side but it is still well within acceptable range.
kj
As an Alaskan hunter, guide, and outdoorsman, I buy a knives to use. In this case the GEC 97.
When I've paid $106 for a folding hunter knife, I expect to be able to use it for hunting, skinning, butchering, etc. with wondering if the blade is going to close on my fingers.
I second this!!!!!
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Re: Weak snap on a GEC?

Post by kootenay joe »

I was describing the 97 i received. Yes i can knock it off the fully open position with a fairly strong 'rap' with my fingers onto the spine but it will not close on it's own while in use unless i make a 'backwards' move of some force. The blade makes a good audible sound when snapping to fully open and fully closed. I do have other Folding Hunters with stronger springs but this 97 is perfectly usable/acceptable as it is. Other 97's might have different spring tension. My point is a slip joint does not need very strong springs. They need enough tension to keep blade closed, and open when used properly.
My 97 has enough spring tension.
I have 2 Northfield 97's coming: ebony and yellow rose bone. I will post their spring tensions when i have them.
If you want to be certain a blade will not fold shut ever while in use, use a fixed blade.
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Re: Weak snap on a GEC?

Post by Doc B »

kootenay joe wrote: If you want to be certain a blade will not fold shut ever while in use, use a fixed blade.
kj
I second that, too!
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Re: Weak snap on a GEC?

Post by kootenay joe »

In the future GEC could do a run of 97's with a liner lock for those who want to be certain they will not inadvertently cause blade to move from open to half stop. Could have a swing guard too so as to really differentiate it from these original 97's.
Or, Northwoods, take note: liner lock swing guard 97 with mammoth & giraffe handles :D
kj
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Re: Weak snap on a GEC?

Post by kootenay joe »

If you do not yet have a 97 you can ask a dealer to "please check a few of these and send me the one with the strongest spring. If all are wimpy please get back to me before filling this order".
Most GEC dealers will do this if you ask them to.
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Re: Weak snap on a GEC?

Post by Mumbleypeg »

Greenman wrote:
Mumbleypeg wrote:
(BTW, in over 60 years of collecting and examining pocket knives I’ve broken my share of nails, but I’ve yet to see my first example of “the divot in the edge from a powerful closing snap”. If such a thing exists it must not be very common.[/b]) ::shrug::

Ken
Blade “rapping” is almost ubiquitous in Laguioles and various other traditional French folding knife patterns. It is also quite common to find divots in the edges of the blades of a large number of Queen folders. I’ve noticed it rather frequently on the clip blade—and occasionally the sheepsfoot blade—of older (pre-1990s, two backspring) Case ‘47 stockman knives. I’ve also seen the occasional occurrence of blade rap on the spay blade of the Case ‘18 stockman pattern. I can’t speak from personal experience, but my customers have told me that it is a rather common occurrence on recently manufactured Böker trappers and larger stockman patterns. As a longtime collector of traditional French folders, I have learned to never let the blade slam shut on any folding knife—most particularly those with overly strong backsprings.
First I’d like to correct a typo error in my statement - should say “over 50 years”, not “over 60 years”. I’m old, but not that old! :lol: I didn’t start intentionally “collecting” until about 1968.

Thanks for the information. Laguioles and French-made knives in general haven’t interested me so I have not examined more than a handful at most. Queens and especially Cases however are a different story. I couldn’t begin to guess how many Case pocket knives I’ve handled, mostly pre-1980 vintage, mint condition and otherwise. I have carried and used 18 and 47 (specifically 047) pattern Stockmans most of my life. Somehow I’ve missed any having the “blade rapping” phenomena.

Maybe I just don’t know what to look for. ::shrug:: Anyone got pictures of this problem?

Ken
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Re: Weak snap on a GEC?

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Mumbleypeg wrote:
Maybe I just don’t know what to look for. ::shrug:: Anyone got pictures of this problem?

Ken
Ken, it looks like this. Just a small ding in the sharpened edge.
IMG_4708.JPG
IMG_4709.JPG
It's easy to miss unless you are looking for it but it's noticeable when cutting certain materials. I cut a lot of shrink wrap at work and if I haven't already discovered the problem, I'll know about it then because the edge gets hung up on the shrink wrap.

The knife above is this Schatt & Morgan #69 Jack.
IMG_3896.JPG
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Re: Weak snap on a GEC?

Post by ken98k »

Well I guess I've got it wrong all these years, thinking a strong mainspring was good thing. I guess I should throw out all my old knives that have alligator snap. :roll:
Anyone interested in a couple hundred junk knives that make too much noise when you open and close them?
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Re: Weak snap on a GEC?

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ken98k wrote:Well I guess I've got it wrong all these years, thinking a strong mainspring was good thing. I guess I should throw out all my old knives that have alligator snap. :roll:
Anyone interested in a couple hundred junk knives that make too much noise when you open and close them?
Assuming the tang is configured ideally...it is designed to hit the backspring and prevent this. Often users report...if they notice this...after a couple of sharpenings, the blade no longer is long enough to hit the backspring.
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Re: Weak snap on a GEC?

Post by Mumbleypeg »

Doc B wrote:
ken98k wrote:Well I guess I've got it wrong all these years, thinking a strong mainspring was good thing. I guess I should throw out all my old knives that have alligator snap. :roll:
Anyone interested in a couple hundred junk knives that make too much noise when you open and close them?
Assuming the tang is configured ideally...it is designed to hit the backspring and prevent this. Often users report...if they notice this...after a couple of sharpenings, the blade no longer is long enough to hit the backspring.
All this time I’ve been thinking that the purpose of the blade kick on a properly built knife was to keep the sharpened part of a blade from contacting the backspring. That click sound you should hear on closing is when the kick hits the backspring, not the blade hitting. ::shrug::

Thanks for the pictures Railsplitter. I haven’t seen that, or just wasn’t looking for it. Maybe it’s more commonly found on modern knives. It also makes sense that it would decrease as the blade is sharpened.

Ken
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Re: Weak snap on a GEC?

Post by kootenay joe »

The tiny divot in the edge of an unsharpened blade does not occur if the spring is a bit soft or if you hold the blade to control closing force. This must indicate that some flex happens with a strong spring, otherwise the kick would stop blade before contact with the spring pivot pin.
It is not anything to worry about. I see it as normal for a certain percentage of slip joints; i.e. not a defect.
kj
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Re: Weak snap on a GEC?

Post by Railsplitter »

I do consider it a defect. The risk of blade rap should be taken into consideration by the manufacturer when designing the pattern. There are at least two manufacturers who agree and have done something about it.

Both A.G. Russell and LoinSteel incorporate a Striker Pin to prevent blade rap. The tang strikes the pin which sits well above the backspring eliminating the risk of blade rap. It's as if they said "Like good snap but hate blade rap? Here, let me fix that for ya".

A.G. Russell Doctor's knife. Note how far above the edge the tang is. Still no blade rap because the Striker Pin prevents it.
IMG_4711.JPG
IMG_4712.JPG
LionSteel Otnat. Same concept.
IMG_4462.JPG
IMG_4457.JPG
These are obviously knives of a more modern variety but it's nice to see that the problem was recognized and resolved by these two makers.
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Re: Weak snap on a GEC?

Post by Sharpnshinyknives »

Railsplitter wrote:I do consider it a defect. The risk of blade rap should be taken into consideration by the manufacturer when designing the pattern. There are at least two manufacturers who agree and have done something about it.

Both A.G. Russell and LoinSteel incorporate a Striker Pin to prevent blade rap. The tang strikes the pin which sits well above the backspring eliminating the risk of blade rap. It's as if they said "Like good snap but hate blade rap? Here, let me fix that for ya".

A.G. Russell Doctor's knife. Note how far above the edge the tang is. Still no blade rap because the Striker Pin prevents it.
IMG_4711.JPG
IMG_4712.JPG
LionSteel Otnat. Same concept.
IMG_4462.JPG
IMG_4457.JPG
These are obviously knives of a more modern variety but it's nice to see that the problem was recognized and resolved by these two makers.
RIck, I have that Dr.’s knife, I will have to look for that. Now I am going to be checking all my knives for that pin.
Given the pictures on that Queen knife above and what it has done to the edge, I would consider that a defect also. It seems to me that the manufacturer built this on sloppy tolerances. It shouldn’t be up to the end customer to have to reduce the blade edge to keep the edge pristine.
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Re: Weak snap on a GEC?

Post by KnifeSlinger#81 »

Mumbleypeg wrote:(BTW, in over 60 years of collecting and examining pocket knives I’ve broken my share of nails, but I’ve yet to see my first example of “the divot in the edge from a powerful closing snap”. If such a thing exists it must not be very common.) ::shrug::

Ken
I've had my fair share of knives where the edge hits the backspring when you close it. A few because they snap so hard, the rest most likely because of improper tolerances. Two of those are 1965-69 cases. I sharpened one of them out, the other one I put a little shim under the kick. I'm at the point now that I can tell when the blade hits the spring by the sound, it has a more dull thud sound when it happens.

I like hard snap on knives when I can get it, the 7-8 range is perfect. They don't have to snap hard as long as they snap well and properly, but I have low tolerance for light snappers.
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Re: Weak snap on a GEC?

Post by ken98k »

Just got off the phone with GEC. They said, "they were intentionally made with a very light pull due to previous complaints from collectors."
So I guess if you're looking for a "USER", buy a Case or a Rough Rider, as Great Eastern no longer produces knives for actual use, only display models for collectors.
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Re: Weak snap on a GEC?

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The first lady I spoke with was very pleasant and when I explained what I wanted she said "I don't know but I'll find out". ::tu::
The next person was ready to fight when she got on the phone, and it was obvious right away from her tone, there would be no compromise on her part.
After she explained why GEC knives now have soft pulls, I said "So I guess that means there's nothing that can be done about it, that's just the way it is?" she said YES. ::uc::
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