Western Boulder WW 2 Shark Fighting knife type 2 Cole pg 81

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Mossdancer
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Western Boulder WW 2 Shark Fighting knife type 2 Cole pg 81

Post by Mossdancer »

Down to the patent number this knife and sheath are authentic and original in my opinion. Can you agree or disagree and if please tell me why?? Unusual that it has the exposed split tang. Check the end of tang with the hammered ends. The round pommel is with this type 2, This can be verified in the best of Cole page 81, the four rivet sheath and knife are both shown. Thank you for any and all help. This is the only one I have ever held or seen other than photo's. With proper filters there is what appears to be a chronological sequence of events that occurred while this knife was in the hands of the U.S.Navy owner.
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Colonel26
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Re: Western Boulder WW 2 Shark Fighting knife type 2 Cole pg 81

Post by Colonel26 »

It looks like the real deal to me, but I am no expert you understand. Very cool old knife.
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Re: Western Boulder WW 2 Shark Fighting knife type 2 Cole pg 81

Post by tongueriver »

Mossdancer wrote: Unusual that it has the exposed split tang.
I don't understand what you are referring to. I wish I had that book you mention. Otherwise it looks like a standard military G-46-6 to me. ?
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Re: Western Boulder WW 2 Shark Fighting knife type 2 Cole pg 81

Post by terryl308 »

I donot have the Cole book but in the Harvey Platts book, the 1936 catalog has a "New Construction" of the handle . That being described as a full tang steel with the center being removed. The G46 before that date I believe had a narrow tang completely covered with a leather washer. I believe all WW11 G46's would have constructed like the one you have. Nice old knife! ::handshake:: Terry
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Re: Western Boulder WW 2 Shark Fighting knife type 2 Cole pg 81

Post by Mossdancer »

I don't currently have a g-46 but here is the photo in question from Cole Best of U.S. Military Knives. As I recollect the difference is in the cut and positioning of the fuller. The center is the knife with it and the left one using the same type sheath
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Re: Western Boulder WW 2 Shark Fighting knife type 2 Cole pg 81

Post by zzyzzogeton »

Long-time lurker, but first post on AAPK.... :mrgreen:

The knife and sheath are both authentic WW2 vintage Western items.

The pre-WW2 G46 series had the "mushroom" pommel, as I call it. The first documented use of the bird beak pommel by Western is in the 1931 catalog reprints, where Western called it a "curved, metal end knob". Hereafter, BB will mean "bird beak". :)

During WW2, the G46 series morphed into two styles. One style had the BB pommel and the other style had the flat typically associated with the 1219C2/USN MK2/some versions of the USN MK1.

First, the BB knives...

From 1931 to 1941, the G46-4 (with a 4-1/4" blade), G46-5 and G46-6 had mushroom shaped pommels.

The BB G46s came in 2 blade lengths - 5" and 6". The G46-4 production ceased during the war and was never brought back after the war. Both had fullers. Western terminology remained G46-5 and G46-6, the same as their their pre-war designations. At some point in time, the knives were dubbed the Baby Shark and Shark by someone.

The early versions had aluminum BB pommels (as did the L76 and L77 Commando Dagger and Commando Knife) and the very earliest had brass guards, essentially stock on hand. With wartime rationing/restrictions on the use of aluminum, the BBs started using a brown swirled plastic for pommels. Some guards were steel and other used the same brown swirl plastic.

Without measuring the blades, a Shark can always be recognized by the lanyard hole in the pommel. The Baby Shark never had one.

I have always assumed that the plastic guard knives were late war production. Although I have no documentation on that, I once saw a picture on line (and stupidly did not copy it) of a case of plastic pommel/guard Baby Sharks was found still n the factory paper. There was a picture of a 1945 shipping date on the box.

On to the flat pommel knives.

There were 3 G46 flat pommel knives and 2 L71 flat pommel knives.

The Gs were the G46-5, G46-6 and G46-8, with 5". 6" and 8" blades respectively. The L71s came with 5" and 6" blades. In The Knife Makers Who Went West (TKMWWW), on the single 1945 page depicting the Western war year knives, the L71, aka the "Seabees" knife is listed as having a 5" blade. I call these the L71-5 and L71-6, although Western never designated them that. The L71s and the G46-5s were Western's equivalent of the USN MK1.

The WW2 G46s, BB or flat pommel, had fullers in the blades. The L71s were flat grind, no fullers. The reason I say there were both 5" and 6" L71 versions made is because I own some of each. TKMWWW, while a good reference, has errors. This is one of them.

Western never had a DoN contract to make the USN MK1 or MK2. But they made equivalent anyway and sold many thousands of knives to the military, primarily the Navy and Marines due to the relative closeness of Boulder to the west coast - an overnight train trip allowed for rapid delivery. WW2 purchasing was less rigid than peace-time ordering. Units had discretionary funds and would buy the knives they wanted. The G46-8 was very popular for both its slightly longer 8" blade and the fact that the tangs didn't snap as easily as those on the 1219C2/USN MK2.

So, in a nutshell - fullers = G46s, flat grind = L71.
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Re: Western Boulder WW 2 Shark Fighting knife type 2 Cole pg 81

Post by Mossdancer »

zzyzzogeton:
Great first post. Although Cole's book is mostly line drawings or photo's he essentially substantiates what you wrote with depictions of most of the knives you mentioned. My mind will not stay on subject long enough or I would post the photo's.
If I wake up someday and see it is going to be a good one I will try anyway.
Thank You,
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Re: Western Boulder WW 2 Shark Fighting knife type 2 Cole pg 81

Post by Producer »

Nice Shark Mossdancer.
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Re: Western Boulder WW 2 Shark Fighting knife type 2 Cole pg 81

Post by WelderBob »

Moss, This is the sheath my flat pommel Shark came in and my bright blade came in this fold over sheath.
Even though it's double stitched and riveted this may not be original.

ZZ...thanks for that info... ::tu::
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Re: Western Boulder WW 2 Shark Fighting knife type 2 Cole pg 81

Post by zzyzzogeton »

Although MOST sheaths by Western during WW2 were of the pancake (flat in Western terminology) style, during 1945 Western started producing folded or "tubular" (in Western terminology) sheaths.

The sheath looks to be one of Westerns late war tubular style - double stitched, 5 steel rivets, fold-over belt section. Whether the knife was just polished up or polished and mated with an old sheath I can't tell, but they do match.

As an aside, although Western would occasionally come out with tubular sheaths for some models during the 30s and the immediate post-war period, the tubular sheath really hit its stride in the Western line-up starting around 1959, especially for the smaller knives, e.g., the 66 and the bird & trouts (48A, 48B, 28).
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Re: Western Boulder WW 2 Shark Fighting knife type 2 Cole pg 81

Post by WelderBob »

Well thank's again, it's nice to know this is right. Knife is original finish, looks to have factory edge.
Bob

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Re: Western Boulder WW 2 Shark Fighting knife type 2 Cole pg 81

Post by zzyzzogeton »

I figured it had been polished up due to what appears to be freckling on the pommel and ricasso.
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Re: Western Boulder WW 2 Shark Fighting knife type 2 Cole pg 81

Post by WelderBob »

I did give it a couple coats of Ren wax... :)
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Re: Western Boulder WW 2 Shark Fighting knife type 2 Cole pg 81

Post by Mossdancer »

Great looking knives. Do any of you guys ever get any feelings of guilt over having what is probably an inordinate share of the knives of this type available. NOPE, what does bother me Is the thought of what they will sell for at a garage sale when I expire. Just maybe we ought to start one big assed museum somewhere. Maybe in the middle of a desert where rust does not live.
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Re: Western Boulder WW 2 Shark Fighting knife type 2 Cole pg 81

Post by zzyzzogeton »

Nope, not a single bit of guilt. ::super_happy::

I look at it as I am preserving some small bits of history from the scrap metal piles. ::mdm::

I actually have about 40% of my collection properly tagged with information about the Brand, Model and any history, if the knife or sword came from a specific military individual. I also have how much I paid, with shipping separate (I really hate GBP for shipping from the UK ::td:: ) so that my nephew will KNOW how badly he is getting ripped off if he sells them. ::teary_eyes:: The "stuff" I accumulated from 1977 through about 2001 is less properly documented. ::doh::

As an example, my most recent acquisition is a M1852 USN Officer's sword, purchased in 1975 by a platoon leader with rank of Ensign within the hierarchy of the Admiral Faragut Academy in Florida. After graduation in 1976, he went on to serve in the Army in the infantry in Arkansas and Berlin, Germany. I have all his information on a tag with the other tracking information I keep on each knife.
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Re: Western Boulder WW 2 Shark Fighting knife type 2 Cole pg 81

Post by WelderBob »

Moss, That is a scary thought, I just hope the arrangements I made will hold.
As for my guilt feelings in having too many knives....NONE !
Someone has to give them a home... ::nod::
Bob

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