knife steel of the early 1900

[roger bennett]

what type of knife was used by Camillus in the early years was it 1095 I have a stockman made between 1920 and 1930 use it every day for carving sharpest pocket knife I every had I am 64 years old this steel beats them all roger

[FRJ]

Welcome, roger bennett.
I know nothing about steel but would like to welcome you to the forum and thank you for participating.
We would love to see pictures of your knives.
Seems like you chose a good one for carving.
Chose a proper subforum and show us your carving if you would like to.

[supratentorial]

what type of knife was used by Camillus in the early years was it 1095 I have a stockman made between 1920 and 1930 use it every day for carving sharpest pocket knife I every had I am 64 years old this steel beats them all roger

Camillus forged their blades from Wardlow's best crucible steel from Sheffield England.

c1909

c1921

[roger bennett]

thanks guys all I known this blade steel is great I carve 4 to 6 hours a day sometime just strop and keep cutting my new pocket knives will not do this no matter the brand this is a great forum for people who love old usa made knives thanks a lot roger

[Paladin]

what type of knife was used by Camillus in the early years was it 1095 I have a stockman made between 1920 and 1930 use it every day for carving sharpest pocket knife I every had I am 64 years old this steel beats them all roger

Roger and I really, really mean it. Please though, for the sake of my OC disorder and my sanity, put commas, periods and the occasional upper case in your posts. It will be so much easier and more fun even, to read your posts.

[americanedgetech]

I've been told that I punctuate too much so between he, and I... everything should just balance out.

I'll lend you plenty of periods. Commas, you have to dig for...
Ohhh I have a lot of these things~~~~~~

[Old Hunter]

I love the dash - and the exclamation point! Welcome to AAPK - Roger! OH

[kootenay joe]

Was "Wardlow's Crucible Cast Steel 1095 ? Or when was 1095 steel first used ?
Do you know what Rc range was used in the 'old days' ?
kj

[supratentorial]

Was "Wardlow's Crucible Cast Steel 1095 ? Or when was 1095 steel first used ?
Do you know what Rc range was used in the 'old days' ?
kj

Good questions. I've just seen a lot of the old ads marketing Wardlow's or unspecified English steel. I think the US steel industry was surpassing the English industry by the early 1900 so the English steel was either better quality or had better reputation. I haven't done research into the chemistry of the steels. Manufacturing certainly has changed a lot in 100 years. Some of the knife steel web databases have Wardlow steels listed but I don't know if any of them is similar to Wardlow's crucible steel from the early 1900s.

[KnifeSlinger#81]

Do you know what Rc range was used in the 'old days' ?
kj

It would be interesting to know. I suspect it was noticeably lower than the same or similar steels that are used today. The reason I suspect that is because all the "old day" knives I've sharpened take an edge quite a bit faster than their newer equivalents like gec or modern case, even ellenville old timers and uncle henrys. It's much quicker sharpening a chip out of an edge on the "old day" knives. However some of that ease of sharpening is because those pre war knives are normally quite a bit thinner behind the edge than most newer produced cutlery, except maybe opinels.

[Mumbleypeg]

IMHO the tempering process has as much or more to do with the edge holding and ease of sharpening as the type of steel used. The steel no doubt has some effect but without proper tempering it won't work well regardless. Wardlow's Crucible Cast Steel. The key word here is probably "crucible" which to me implies the tempering process. Over 100 years ago Case built a reputation on "XX" - the double-tempering of their steel, which they wisely marketed into the trademark it became.

Too much attention and too much discussion nowadays about what kind of steel, and not enough attention about tempering. Just my 2 cents.

(BTW what ever happened to the "cent" symbol? This i-thingy I'm typing on doesn't seem to have such a symbol!)

Ken

[supratentorial]

Good posts.

Do you know what Rc range was used in the 'old days' ?
kj

It would be interesting to know. I suspect it was noticeably lower than the same or similar steels that are used today. The reason I suspect that is because all the "old day" knives I've sharpened take an edge quite a bit faster than their newer equivalents like gec or modern case, even ellenville old timers and uncle henrys. It's much quicker sharpening a chip out of an edge on the "old day" knives. However some of that ease of sharpening is because those pre war knives are normally quite a bit thinner behind the edge than most newer produced cutlery, except maybe opinels.

Makes sense to me. I'd need to do some digging to see if I can find some heat treat specifics. I have some old journal articles but I don't recall them giving specifics. I have seen the heat treat schedule from 1970s Schrade but that's much later. Schrades 1095 target HRc was in the range 57-59.

IMHO the tempering process has as much or more to do with the edge holding and ease of sharpening as the type of steel used. The steel no doubt has some effect but without proper tempering it won't work well regardless. Wardlow's Crucible Cast Steel. The key word here is probably "crucible" which to me implies the tempering process. Over 100 years ago Case built a reputation on "XX" - the double-tempering of their steel, which they wisely marketed into the trademark it became.

Too much attention and too much discussion nowadays about what kind of steel, and not enough attention about tempering. Just my 2 cents.

(BTW what ever happened to the "cent" symbol? This i-thingy I'm typing on doesn't seem to have such a symbol!)

Ken

Crucible steel is steel made by melting iron and other materials in a crucible. I think that died out in the late 60s but I'd need to look it up. Heat treating is done after the blades are forged. (note: Drop forging had replaced hand forging before the early 1900s. And later forging was replaced with blanking and stock removal.)

[kootenay joe]

As i understand it tempering of a knife steel is to harden it so that it can take a good edge but not so hard that it becomes brittle and chips easily. I have been told that vintage USA knives were tempered to Rc of very low 50's. If tempered harder, that steel became brittle. Many of the commonly used blade steels now can be tempered to Rc in the 60 range (59-61) before becoming too brittle.
Yes, tempering is important but the steel involved controls what the best outcome can be.
kj

[Mumbleypeg]

Many of the commonly used blade steels now can be tempered to Rc in the 60 range (59-61) before becoming too brittle.
Yes, tempering is important but the steel involved controls what the best outcome can be.
kj

Or you could phrase it "the steel involved is important but tempering controls what the best outcome can be."

Either without the other doesn't work well.

Ken

[supratentorial]

It seems the Rockwell scale and testing equipment wasn't invented to the 1910s. So no Rockwell numbers for the steel in early 1900 knives unless tested present day.

This 1907 description of hardening and tempering talks about the color of the heat:
"Hardening is effected by bringing it to a red heat and dipping it in water up to the choil. The tang is left soft, so it may be readily filed, drilled, stamped with the maker's name , and fitted in the handle. Tempering is often accomplished by bringing the blades to a purple heat on a thin copper plate..."

Here's an excerpt from a hundred year old article on Remington:
"After the blades are pierced, making ready for the rivet, they are forwarded to the Heat Treatment Department where they are hardened and tempered... Men who are able to perform this work day in and day out, producing a high uniform standard, are rare birds. The long experience of the Company in hardening and tempering gun parts, bayonets and other like products has been utilized to the utmost in this process. This room is screened so the light is very evenly diffused daylight in order that the operators may easily judge the color of the metal. After the blades are hardened and tempered they are tested and straightened. In order to test the blades for flaws, each one is thrown against a block of steel. Blades which do not ring true are rejected."

This very basic article from the "Associated Cutlery Industries of America" in 1950 still describes the color of the heat but also gives a temperature range....

"Whereas originally temperature of heat was determined by the color perception of the workman, and his judgment alone determined the temperature of the quench, these are now determined without the hazard of human judgment by precision instruments known as pyrometers, with resulting uniformity in hardness obtained...."

[danno50]

Informative and interesting article. Thanks for posting that Supratentorial.
Dan

[supratentorial]

Happy you enjoyed it, Dan