Red Bone vs. Green Bone

[deo-pa]

1) I assume these terms mean that one handle looks more greenish and another more reddish and that this is most apparent on the ends and edges that are un-jigged; is that correct?

2) Do the makers of handles dye them differently or is it just a matter of how the bone "takes" the dye?

3) Do the terms imply anything else? Such as green bone is newer bone?

4) Are there any historical connotations or generalities, such as: "The 1930s are the green bone era"? Or "Ulster knives of the 1950s are known for their green bone"?

5) In general, if you had two knives identical except for bone color would one or the other necessarily be considered more valuable? For example, do most collectors seem to prefer red over green or vise versa?

Thanks! Dennis

[montemojo]

Hmm Dennis, I believe the thread titled starting over by Larry has some of the best examples of old green bone. As far as red bone goes that is more opinionated. Some knives that I would consider red bone others here would not. Also there are listings in auctions that are described to be red bone that are not. Of those the knives are what I would consider to be brown bone. Other listings aren't bone at all they are delrin. Any how thats just my 2 cents worth. I'm sure others here will see this differntly.

Monte

[steve99f]

I've think I've heard the terms used only in relation to WR Case knives, fixed and folders. Good question Dennis, I'm interested in what the more experienced members have to say.

[olderdogs1]

Greenbone was mostly used prior to 1940 although some early XX knives 1940-50 do have greenbone handles. The knives with greenbone handles are generally more desirable as they are older. I would assume the dye was changed from the green to red somewhere along the way.
Red bone as was previously mentioned is very subjective as to whether it is true redbone or not.
Very few knives in the Tested era, 1920-40 had redbone handles although a few did. This only references WR Case knives of course. Hope this helps a little.

Tom

[kootenay joe]

Am i correct in thinking the green bone/red bone only has significance with older Case knives ?
The Schrade, Camillus, Ulster, NYKCo, etc., knives are not grouped by the color tinge of the bone handles. Some ebay sellers might list a vintage knife from one of these companies and say "green bone handles" but that is just an attempt at marketing.
Robeson did introduce a "Strawberry red" bone beginning in 1940's or early '50's and this is quite distinct from there other bone handles and as far as i am aware they had no green bone.
Please correct me if any of this is not accurate.
kj

[Berryb]

I have these 3 case knives; a USA whittler, a pre-49 XX, and the tested fixed blade. According to my book (Parker and Voyles 2nd ed.) the USA is not red bone because of when it was made. Sure looks red to me. So is this something that knife experts decided or did it come from Case? I included the the fixed bade because It's an example of green bone, I think. Looks brown to me. Thanks
Bruce

[Mumbleypeg]

Good question Dennis. I'm far, far from an expert but that's never stopped me before from giving an opinion. So I'll try to answer your questions from the perspective of a long-time collector.

1. The color variations that give rise to the names green bone or red bone are generally existent across the handles, not just limited to the edges or ends near the bolsters, or the un-jigged areas.

2. In my experience the terms green bone and red bone originated with collectors in reference to describing Case knives. It has since spread somewhat to other brands but when I hear the terms, my mind immediately goes to Case. Maybe not the same with newer collectors.

3 and 4. As related to green bone, I think of older knives, either Tested or early XX era. Case "green bone" of that era isn't green like grass or tree leaves. It's a more brownish or tan color with a hint of olive green in it. Hard to describe but after seeing it a few times in hand, you'll know it when you see it again. I find it also difficult to photograph accurately due to variations introduced by lighting used in the photography. The same applies generally to "red bone" but as others have pointed out its more subjective and there seems to be more different opinions about it.

5. For whatever reasons collectors have put higher value on old green bone and red bone knives. Sellers have sought to take advantage of that, hence the spread of the terms to other brands and taking liberties with describing all kinds of knives as being green bone or red bone. Caveat emptor!

Here's a picture I took recently of some Case 06267s from across different eras that show color variations. They are, top to bottom, an early USA (1966-ish) reddish bone (not considered "red bone" due to wrong era), a XX era typical bone (not red bone or green bone, cuz it's not red or green), a Tested era rough black, and a Tested era green bone.

Ken

[SolWarrior]

Ken, none of them look green to me. I guess it's just the name "green bone" vs "red bone". The top one looks fiery orange followed by fiery red with brown, the obvious black and lastly the brown tan with a little reddish color.

What knives I have in bone, are all mostly different shades of brown. Here are four (of the most extreme in color difference) in order: 1st photo: A peach seed jigged Schrade Cut Co. 2nd photo - A tan colored bone L. F. & C. Universal. 3rd photo: A Camillus #14 Jack in Rogers bone. 4th photo: A Camillus #72 in Rogers bone that looks like green bone on the front side but you tell me. (The back bone cover looks different.) So, maybe this green vs red bone is strictly Case naming their covers as they saw fit. Once trade marked as that, collectors and eBay sellers alike took those bone color names and ran with them.

[zp4ja]

Good question Dennis. I'm far, far from an expert but that's never stopped me before from giving an opinion. So I'll try to answer your questions from the perspective of a long-time collector.

1. The color variations that give rise to the names green bone or red bone are generally existent across the handles, not just limited to the edges or ends near the bolsters, or the un-jigged areas.

2. In my experience the terms green bone and red bone originated with collectors in reference to describing Case knives. It has since spread somewhat to other brands but when I hear the terms, my mind immediately goes to Case. Maybe not the same with newer collectors.

3 and 4. As related to green bone, I think of older knives, either Tested or early XX era. Case "green bone" of that era isn't green like grass or tree leaves. It's a more brownish or tan color with a hint of olive green in it. Hard to describe but after seeing it a few times in hand, you'll know it when you see it again. I find it also difficult to photograph accurately due to variations introduced by lighting used in the photography. The same applies generally to "red bone" but as others have pointed out its more subjective and there seems to be more different opinions about it.

5. For whatever reasons collectors have put higher value on old green bone and red bone knives. Sellers have sought to take advantage of that, hence the spread of the terms to other brands and taking liberties with describing all kinds of knives as being green bone or red bone. Caveat emptor!

Here's a picture I took recently of some Case 06267s from across different eras that show color variations. They are, top to bottom, an early USA (1966-ish) reddish bone (not considered "red bone" due to wrong era), a XX era typical bone (not red bone or green bone, cuz it's not red or green), a Tested era rough black, and a Tested era green bone.

Ken

Very well said Ken! I agree on all points except for one regarding USA era CASE knives. It is true that besides a couple of transitions Congress as I recall, no USA red bones are listed in the price guides I have.
However, the color spectrum is not up to interpretation in my opinion. Red is red. However, as you have stated, CASE green bone, with few exceptions is not according to the spectrum in my opinion but it is not brown either in my book. I personally treat the two slightly differently. Maybe hypocritical but that is how I do it. CASE green bone is as you described. Case red bone is what my eye tells me is red according to the color spectrum, regardless if the experts think it exists or not.
Here is a USA swing guard. I have some tell me not red as not listed in the books. This knife is red in my opinion. Is it not red "in color" since it is not listed in the books, certainly not. Is the bone red, yes. Can I call it red bone since not listed? I personally think so without any motivation of increased value, just based on the actual color alone.

~80 to 90% of the CASE knives I see called red bone sure as heck is not red bone in my book. More value motivated in my opinion.

Jerry

[gsmith7158]

I have always thought it would be interesting if one could identify the suppliers of the dye to Case to chronicle the chemical make up of the dyes into a time line because it appears that Case never actually made any claims of redbone or greenbone. Or did Case just use whatever they could get? Obviously it is that trait that determines the color of the knife handle.

[jlw257]

Greenbone was mostly used prior to 1940 although some early XX knives 1940-50 do have greenbone handles. The knives with greenbone handles are generally more desirable as they are older. I would assume the dye was changed from the green to red somewhere along the way.
Red bone as was previously mentioned is very subjective as to whether it is true redbone or not.
Very few knives in the Tested era, 1920-40 had redbone handles although a few did. This only references WR Case knives of course. Hope this helps a little.

Tom

You are right Tom. You can go back to the earliest Case knives and find a lot of them had Greenbone handles, these were working knives and only a few survived. There were afew Redbones in the Tested era,but mostly in the XX era. As to the USA era, you can call them what ever color you want and be right. When and why they change dye colors has always been a mystery to me.
Here a few Redbone and Greenbone knives

Larry

[Mumbleypeg]

Ken, none of them look green to me. I guess it's just the name "green bone" vs "red bone". The top one looks fiery orange followed by fiery red with brown, the obvious black and lastly the brown tan with a little reddish color.

So, maybe this green vs red bone is strictly Case naming their covers as they saw fit. Once trade marked as that, collectors and eBay sellers alike took those bone color names and ran with them.

Felix, I completely understand your not thinking any of them look green. As to "Case naming their covers as they saw fit" however, to be clear it wasn't Case that came up with the terms "green bone" or "red bone". It was collectors who did it. Back when these were made, Case had only "bone" - I don't recall color descriptions used in any old Case catalogs I have seen. Variations in color were apparently just what came out of the dye vats. Whether it was due to differences in the dye mix, dye suppliers, "soak" time in the dye vat, how different batches of bone took the dye, or , it wasn't anything Case acknowledged or marketed at the time.

The first time Case described a bone handled knife as having a particular color was the introduction of Appaloosa bone in 1978. This is documented in Steve Pfeiffer's book. Since that introduction of bone colors as a marketing feature, Case has concocted bone dyes of many colors, naming and marketing them accordingly. These post-1978 marketing "features" were clearly undertaken by Case as a result of their becoming attuned to the interests of collectors.

Ken

[Tsar Bomba]

For someone who owns a whole lot more newer Case knives than old, the idea of "red bone" to me would nominally be related to the color balance of the red dye added to the bone, or so common sense would have me suppose. I understand the naming conventions vis-a-vis era of knife, for sure, but I'm genuinely curious as to what differentiates the red dye Case used in the XX-era predecessors to these knives and the red dye used in these USA-era knives themselves... (Ignore the smooth rose peanut in the foreground of the 2nd pic.)

I have noticed that the dot-era "red bone" knives most often resemble what Case more recently (90s+) refers to as "chestnut bone", but the XX/USA era distinction has me a little more puzzled...

[SolWarrior]

Ken: The way it's been discussed in many threads and used in descriptions on eBay, I was under the impression that green and red bone were official terms used by Case. I'm actually glad this wasn't the case. Thanks for the explanation.

[knife7knut]

While I am not a Case collector per se(although I do own a few of them)I tend to categorize knife handles as either "bone" or "ain't bone" meaning faux bone. I further break it down as "smooth bone" and "not smooth bone". I do the same thing with antler; that being "stag" and "ain't stag".
As someone who works with colors every day(and trying to match them)I have always wondered why green bone was referred to as such.To my eye I do not see any hint of green in any that I have examined and the color variations and textures of what is considered green bone is widespread. When I am preparing to mix up a gray color to match an existing stripe it is one of the most difficult to create as there can be overtones of green;brown;blue;and red to the gray so my eyes are pretty sensitive to color.
I guess the argument over what constitutes green or red bone can be likened to the purists who restore automobiles and insist that every paper tag and chalk mark that was used in the production of the vehicle be retained or restored to as new condition. Reminds me of one restorer(a good friend)who had one of his employees spend nearly a week using a hand made chasing tool to simulate the original cast finish on an engine block that had been polished smooth.Guess it was worth it because the car won Pebble Beach that year.
Just my opinion folks;your mileage may vary.

[terryl308]

I was going to stay out of this question but here is my take after reading all these posts. Case bone handled knives before WW11 were "green bone" with some exceptions and there after "red bone" with some exceptions! I think I'll just call them "jig bone" and let the buyer call it what he wants to. I have dyed a lot of bone and antler material in the past 20 years and it's hard to duplicate any color even if the same dye is used, bone takes dye differently, and you end up with a variety of colors. I assume Case used one lot of dye for pre ww11 handles (maybe a green tinted color) and a new and "improved version" after that, that had more of a red tint? I believe it was the collectors that put the name "green bone" and "red bone " on them. I have been wondering about this for a long time, thanks for the post. Terry

[deo-pa]

I'm glad I raised this bone question because this has been an excellent discussion and I feel like I'm a lot smarter now. Here are my take-aways. Please chime in if you think my conclusions are wrong.

1) Red bone and green bone are terms that strictly speaking apply only to pre-1965 Case knives (though the terms are widely used by folks to describe later Case knives as well as knives from other makers).

2) The terms were not used by Case. Rather they were developed by collectors to describe two rather distinct bone colors associated with these earlier knives. Who coined the terms and when is lost to history.

3) The Tested era (roughly 1915 - 1940) is most associated with green bone, though red bone knives were also made. The XX era (roughly 1940 - 1964) is most associated with red bone, though some green bone knives were made as well.

4) Red bone knives certainly have a red color, though the color can vary quite a bit (e.g., orangish). Green bone knives are not really green in color though some may have an olive tint. Instead they cover a broad range of tans to browns. Why they got the "green bone" name is not clear.

5) The whole matter of color name is subjective, particularly when it comes to red bone. Green bone knives also vary widely in color but they generally aren't confused with red bone because they are distinctly different and seldom have a reddish color.

6) The color variations no doubt arise from variations in the dyes used and variations in the bones themselves. Case never set out to deliberately create red handled knives or green/brown handled knives.

7) Modern knives are often described using the red bone / green bone terms but strictly speaking the terms really don't apply to those knives. Experts and serious collectors reserve these terms for vintage Case knives.

Dennis

[terryl308]

good job, Terry

[Mumbleypeg]

Excellent summary Dennis!

Ken

[Dinadan]

Dennis - I agree that you have pretty well summarized the red bone versus green bone situation. This has been a fun thread to read though I did not contribute because I do not have any expertise in the field.

[knifeaholic]

Ken: The way it's been discussed in many threads and used in descriptions on eBay, I was under the impression that green and red bone were official terms used by Case. I'm actually glad this wasn't the case. Thanks for the explanation.

Case does have official bone colors now, bur NEVER did in the "old days".

[philco]

I'm amazed that the term "Pretty Bone" hasn't come up in this discussion thus far..............

[jlw257]

[quote="philco"]I'm amazed that the term "Pretty Bone" hasn't come up in this discussion thus far.............. [/


Philco, you've open another can of worms

I have always been told that Case didn't make a true Redbone after 1965, it was a darker red called Pretty Bone.

Larry

[olderdogs1]

I'm amazed that the term "Pretty Bone" hasn't come up in this discussion thus far..............

I always thought "pretty bone" was a term that came from Tony Foster to describe bone that was not red necessarily but pretty nonetheless. Doesn't really matter, just what I always thought.

Tom

[btrwtr]

I realize that I am repeating much of what has already been said but here is my two cents on green and red bone knives as related to Case.

As far as Case marketing is concerned there was never any effort or intent to sell the XX stamped knives as either Red or Green bone. This said there was a distinct transition in the dying of the bone during the XX stamped knives from the earlier green to the later, not green, more red and brown colors. As far as I know Case did dye and jig their own bone handles and every phase of the process has variables. Density of bone, concentration of dye solution, time left in the process of the boiling etc. Given this there is no wonder that we see a vast array of color and hues in the of the bone handles.

The terms red bone and green bone as applied to Case knives originated in large with the interest of knives being bought as collectibles. Back when books dealing with Case collectible knives, such as Ferguson's "Romance of Collecting Case Knives" was printed in 1978, price guides differentiated between Green and Red bone XX stamped knives and placed a premium on these knives over regular bone handles.

The reason for a premium on Green bone is that XX stamped green bone knives are earlier production than the other and later colors found. Green is not necessarily true green in color but is distinctly different and easily determined in that it is the same bone as found on many Tested era knives. An earlier made knife equals more desirable and thus a premium pricing in the guides.

The reason for a premium price placed on Red bone handled knives is that early on in the Case knife collecting game collectors would pay more for the XX knives that had the true red color in the handles. I believe the pricing and designation of "red bone" in price guides was intended to describe knives that were Crayola red in color. You know, the kind of red that every first grade child recognizes as red and can readily point out. Not brown, reddish brown, mottled red, dark red and the like but true red in color. It seems through wishful thinking that now, as evidenced on eBay, any knife that is made by Case despite color or material used is being described as "red bone". I do not believe that this is the intent of price guides but it is what it is.

Whereas XX green bone is more a classification of a time, red bone is a classification of color. I believe that red bone is an anomaly of the dying process that randomly occurred in the XX and USA stamped knives.

A general rule is that bone handled Tested era knives are base priced as being green bone. In Tested stamped knives premiums are paid for harder to find bone such as Rogers or Winterbottom.

I have seen many USA era knives that I would consider true red bone. Conversely given the timeline of the transition from green to the not green bone XX knives I would question any red bone Tested era knife as being original.