Parker & Field (Prussia) Serpentine Whittler

[Mason]

Well Lyle this one,whatever it is, is not horn. I heated a very small nail red hot and nothing but a small scorched pin point, as can be seen just to the right of the corroded center pin.

In my opinion, this handle has way too much complexity and randomness to have been created by a human hand simply for the use as a handle. If you look at all of the "molded" stag type handles that companies like Schrade, Wostenholm, LF&C, and others produced over time, you will see patterns which are fairly uniform and consistent, while still employing a pleasing "stag" type look. No offence made at the appearance of this knife handle shown, (I personally like its character) but I can not imagine that someone would have created this extremely intricate and less than the most visually pleasing pattern for a mold.

Molded rubber handles and molded horn handles have different outcomes due to the process of each. Molded synthetic handles as seen on many LF&C knives will have wonderfully sharp and precise shapes, while molded horn handles will always have "rounded" edges and far less sharpness of their synthetic counterparts. Enclosed is a picture showing two similar knife handles from the early 1900s. The top one has carved horn handles, while the bottom one has pressed horn handles. Notice the sharp edges on the carved model versus the rounded edges on the bottom one. Even though pictures can be quite good, they are never as good as the knife in hand with good light and a strong loop.

[wlf]

Is the patent stag spoke about in the Treasury Dept article just jigged bone,and an inspector's and a Dept.'s ignorance ? I also don't understand why we never see this on US manufacturers. Maybe they are out there, we just haven't seen them?

As I told Roland before, I was not totally convinced because of a lot of unanswered questions and lack of consensus. Still a mysterious handle material to me.

[LongBlade]

I understand your points quite well Neal ... the checkered handles are no doubt more uniform but than again I have checkered ivory handles (no photos at the moment) that were no doubt hand done and were very consistent... I have to say though that I have seen some faux stag and jigging where the randomness truly is quite well done and makes me wonder.

Like Lyle though I am abit confused or not convinced yet... based on the written text above about molded handles and use of horn etc they do exist in my opinion - so where are examples of one?? The reason I posted my IXL whittler a few pages back was because it also seems to me to “possibly” be a pressed natural material with stag like markings (maybe it’s jigging and not stag like ) but it differs significantly from the OP knife and others posted here - one can see on my IXL handles where the dark brown dye was well worn around the edges and the dyed material was quite white in color... was this possibly considered patent stag??

Again to echo Lyle it still is abit of a mystery to me... and were the American companies unable to get that stag ? To that last point given nice stag handles on old American knives were few and far between maybe it was not easy to import that stag ( or maybe the import tariffs made it not very cost effective)... nonetheless until I see what is no doubt a pressed horn or patent stag handle I still feel I’m not sure.. so still a mysterious handle material to me too... ... but I love a good mystery

[kootenay joe]

The Treasury Dept. ruling of 1890 linked to in wlf's post previous page, concerns an application by Humason & Beckley to import pieces of horn duty free. There was a 30% tariff on horn that had been treated or worked on in some way, but no tariff on untreated pieces of horn. Therefore this ruling needed to describe these pieces of horn. They are described as being cut to length & thickness suitable for knife handles and "made to imitate in roughness the natural appearance of deer horn".
The only way this is not conclusive evidence is if the handle pieces being imported by H&B were something other than the handles we are debating here.
The deer antler shown by D. has some resemblance to the handles in question. I think the handles we are unsure of are trying to imitate the texture of antler like the one D. has shown.
The O.P. knife i believe has real stag handles, the type of antler shown in D.'s posted picture.
As for the other handles shown here which we are debating, the Treasury Board report is conclusive as long as the handle pieces being referred to are the same as the ones we are unsure of. There is no photograph to document this material. However the description of being "made to imitate in roughness the appearance of deer horn" sounds conclusive to me.
kj

[LongBlade]

The only way this is not conclusive evidence is if the handle pieces being imported by H&B were something other than the handles we are debating here.

The deer antler shown by D. has some resemblance to the handles in question. I think the handles we are unsure of are trying to imitate the texture of antler like the one D. has shown.

As for the other handles shown here which we are debating, the Treasury Board report is conclusive as long as the handle pieces being referred to are the same as the ones we are unsure of. There is no photograph to document this material. However the description of being "made to imitate in roughness the appearance of deer horn" sounds conclusive to me.
kj

That summed it up KJ - the parts I quoted above are the missing parts of the puzzle... if we only had some visual examples it would really help to make more definitive conclusions in my opinion... Without this it is hard to say if anybody is wrong in their assumptions but I remain on the fence... I no doubt have jigged bone handles from H&B but nothing stag- like.... I wonder if an original H&B catalog might be helpful - if they listed patent stag as a handle material - if it just listed stag as many old cutlery catalogs did even for jigged bone it won’t be helpful..

[kootenay joe]

Do H&B catalogs have drawings of the knives ? These are usually very accurate. There might be a sketch of these handles.
However H&B lost the application to import these exempt of the 30% tariff so maybe they did not proceed and never used the handles described in the Treasury Board ruling.
kj

[Mason]

Great thoughts and comments everyone!!!

A bit more to add...

Humason & Beckley called their horn "Buffalo" with no mention or examples showing any "pressed" horn on pocket knives, smooth horn handles only.
Possibly something different for table cutlery?
Their "Imitation Stag" was jigged bone and a picture is included.

Stag, as I know it, is an extension of the skull which is bone, and bone is a much harder material than horn which is made up of an outer layer of basically hair. I have not worked with either of these materials but would think that horn would be much more malleable under heat and pressure than bone??? So, I find it hard to believe that stag could be pressed and formed anywhere as easily as horn. In doing a little research into both horn and stag, anyone would see that there are a vast number of different variations of both, and perhaps even some that might have been used a century ago that we are not aware of.

[wlf]

Pressed stag has been the prevalent collectors ( of many, opinions vary) term , not indicative of DNA,in my limited experience about this handle type.

Let me reiterate that I don’t know what it is, except a red hot tiny finishing nail didn’t faze it.

In no way am I demeaning the knowledge of the posters on this thread. I’m going to try to quit talking about it until I can have it analyzed.

[LongBlade]

Good post Neal ...

I’m going to try to quit talking about it until I can have it analyzed.

maybe you can send it to “23andme”

I guess I struggle with what is exactly pressed stag identification, ie what is an example we know for sure is or was called pressed stag - but if it is a matter of the handles in this thread that resemble the stag Dimitri posted to a degree and knowing what it is than analysis is the best and most definitive solution ... if by chance they come back horn it will truly advance our understanding in my opinion... I agree though lots of good discussion but no real answers ...

[Mason]

Good additional comments and I certainly appreciate the intelligent and civil discussions. Thoughts expressed like these from others sure knock the rust off my old brain gears and help give me the ability to think about different views and possibilities. We all learn from each other!!!

[upnorth]

It is nice to see this topic come up again! Thanks Lyle for the heads up. I have read this thread through with great delight, and tried to absorb what has been proposed, and hope I can add a little information. I also have some pictures to add, of a Clover Brand by W.H.Morely & Sons of Germany.
I am speculating, but I tend to believe that what I have seen of "pressed stag" is indeed Stag, which is sliced, softened by heating and/or soaking, and put in a heavy form. Then it is pressed or squeezed until it takes the shape of the form and keeps it.
After drying it is trimmed, dyed and installed on metal liners. Then it is polished with the rest of the assembled knife.
Note in the pictures that the handle material has a very consistent thickness. I believe the handle material was formed with a slight "crown" along its length. When the knife narrows the edge gets thicker as the cut moves toward the center line of the knife, consistent with the long crown in the material.

[upnorth]

When you magnify Horn, you see what looks like a bundle of hair, closely pressed. Animals that have Horns, have a tapered bony core inside the horn which projects from the skull, and provides support and nutrition to the horn.
The usable parts of Stag are much more homogenous than Horn, with large amounts (especially in Sambar Stag) of strong creamy white matrix. The structures within it, except for the central "pith" or porous core, are hard to see without a strong magnifier. And the outer surfaces, which we knife lovers appreciate the most are often deeply and randomly textured, giving that Staggy appearance!!
I think it is that creamy matrix which is used for "pressed Stag". But I am going to test this further. I am gathering the materials for the testing. I am going to use my microscope, and I am going to burn and otherwise destroy some material!!
And I'll come back here and tell you what I have found!!
Talk To You Later!!

[Miller Bro's]

I am going to burn and otherwise destroy some material!!
And I'll come back here and tell you what I have found!!

can't wait Charlie!

[LongBlade]

Good info above Charlie ... I’m only going to make a speculative comment - no doubt the outer layer of horn has the hairline striations as you point out that one can easily see if you look closely... I just wonder though if after heating and being heavily compressed if those striations are lost and the horn density is much harder - but I also wonder if the color is lost so it turns whitish or perhaps if the inner core of horn which is bone as you said was used .. to that latter point in a separate article I read about using horn for making objects (not knife handles) it was mentioned the outer core was stripped down to the bony core which was used for heating and molding... in the end if that was the case how are you going to differentiate the bony horn from stag (or antler) - the hot pin test results would be the same if I’m not mistaken - IDK ...

Despite those comments - I applaud your efforts to bring more info to this by doing investigative tests even if you do hot pin tests etc and destroy some material ... In the end it may be very interesting and revealing ...

As an aside - I can only make an analogy of which I am familiar in the fly fishing world where some collectible flies were destroyed for the sake of arriving at answers - in the fly tying world some of us collect flies tied in the 1800s - in order to learn very old tying techniques and identify materials we carefully dissected and essentially destroyed very old collectible flies but with detailed photo documentation - in the end important info was revealed about all .. it was well worth the efforts!!!

[wlf]

I have a sacrificial knife , ( the one posted) of not much value, if someone has or knows of access to a pertinent lab.

Thanks for joining in Charlie.

[wlf]

Wostenholms:

[wlf]

2 Henckels and a Boker:

[wlf]

3 Germans: Henckel, Clauberg Bros., Griffon

[kootenay joe]

Not bad knives.
Awesome knives !
kj

[wlf]

Only two of those last ones are mine. The sacrificial knife is the German Western Cutlery whittler I posted on page three.

[gsmith7158]

This is really an exciting and most interesting thread. To think we may soon have an answer to something we have pondered about so many times before is wonderful!

[LongBlade]

I feel I should post the photos of this Wostenholm handle again after reading Charlie's post again - when I read "creamy white matrix" I kept thinking of these handles which are no doubt some type of pressed natural material that were darkly dyed - they certainly do not resemble the pattern nor the lighter color (dye) of the other knives posted but I can't help but think it may have been pressed stag (or horn)... I'll post mark and pile sides, wedged springs for a view of the thickness but importantly look at the tang stamp photo as you can see more clearly the underlying creamy white material which is not synthetic ... Again the handle is different but it may very well be related ... What do others think???

[danno50]

That is an interesting one,Lee. At first glance, I would have said horn. However, looking at the tang stamp photo it certainly looks more like stag?
I am looking forward to the results of Charlie's research. I thought I had a couple of Sheffield knives with pressed something?, but can't seem to find them.

[wlf]

Thanks for joining in the conversation Dan.

[LongBlade]

Thanks Dan ... The tang stamp photo shows the closeup - I’m not sure if I’m seeing Haversian canals but if one looks closely there is some striations of some sort ... just curious what people think - maybe Charlie’s investigation will show something similar... again not the same as other handle patterns but no doubt a natural material that I am guessing is pressed with the pattern... Will the real pressed or patent stag please stand up? ...