Winchester Knife Co

[woodwalker]

Nice knives Bill ... Your smaller knife looks almost like the pattern noted on page 1 of this thread which is a good summary of the history noting the role of Eagle, Napanoch and the merger with Simmons 3 years after they started making knives in 1919 (interestingly what is not noted is that disgruntled Napanoch employees left Winchester in 1921 and returned to Napanoch to start and started Honk Falls Knife Co)... Winchester ended around 1942. The other looks to be a lock back hunter unless I am mistaken? Most of their early knives had model #s stamped on the pile sides of the master but not seeing that on either of yours....

Original Winchester knives are not that common - they didn't produce close to the number of knives compared to Remington, for example, so that may be one reason.. Two other notes - one also has to be careful of Winchester counterfeits and many repros were made later on by companies such as Queen if I am not mistaken - later on in the 1980s(?) by Blue Grass Cutlery in Germany...

I have 2 Winchesters to share which I posted awhile back somewhere on AAPK but never knew this thread existed which is a good place for both (click on photos to enlarge)...

Winchester Jack (Model #2911 on pile side - most likely an earlier top of the line knife as both master and pen blades were marked according to Houston/Zalesky info) -

Mark Side DSCN9278.JPG

Pile Side DSCN9292.JPG

Blades Open DSCN9307.JPG

Tang Stamp DSCN9314.JPG

Pattern 2911 DSCN9355.JPG

Winchester Jr Stock Whittler - Rare pattern with faux horn celluloid handles - Model #3046 on pile side (don't have photo of pile side stamp - Full Winchester etch - At bottom I am attaching a catalog cut of this knife thanks to another AAPK member who kindly provided it on another thread somewhere on AAPK ..

Winchester Whittler 3046 Blades Etch DSCN6097A-2 .jpg

1938-winchester-3046.jpg

Very nice Lee!! Both awesome examples!! I especially like the Horn Jr. Stock Whittler!!

[Duffer]

Here are three Winchester Trade Mark tang stamps all from vintage (pre WWII) Winchester Coke Bottle Folding hunters. The top two are from current EBay auctions and the bottom one is from a Winchester 1920 Coke Bottle Folding hunter I own. According to Goins the one without the dashes before and after Trade Mark is from 1919 and the one with the dashes dates to 1938. So in Goins he says there are two grades of Winchester knives and “it was after 1931 that the second type of Winchester knife was introduced”. Further, “It is not of the same high quality as the other knives”. Bernard Levine calls these second type Winchester knives without pattern number, only one blade marked and rough black or celluloid handles “inexpensive assortment knives” pg. 122 4th edition.

Goins description of the Winchester Trademark Made in USA c 1932-1942 pg. 304 is very confusing and leaves a lot of holes in the timeline regarding production starts and stops and starting again and who was doing what! Question—were both Trademarks (with dashes and without dashes) used during this 1932-1942 production era?

Question—was Winchester, after the split with Simmons, still making higher grade or grade one knives on Napanoch and Walden equipment up to 1942 when they turned to mainly war production? Also how does Western Cartridge Company fit into the history of Cutlery making at Winchester?

The Coke Bottle Folding Hunter pattern 1920 I have is of exceptional quality and ranks right up there in terms of fit and finish with any pre war Schrade/Ulster, Remington, Robeson or NYKC folder of which I have a number of each.

Thanks for any help, correction or my misunderstanding or misinterpretation of anything!

[woodwalker]

Lloyd, that is a pretty knife. Don't know enough about Winchester to be much help. Here is, what I have been told is a Winchester Assortment knife. Not as high quality but still collectable in its own right. Thanks for looking.

[LongBlade]

Thanks Lyle and woodwalker - and nice Winchester toothpick woodwalker just above

Thanks for posting that info Lloyd and awesome Winchester Hunter that you own ... I do agree with you that Goins was abit disjointed to me as well with some gaps that made it confusing especially the stamps with a single year underneath them - so not exactly clear the ranges of when those stamps were used at all... in particular the Trade Mark stamp with and without the hyphen and years associated with either... My 2911 Regular Bone Jack had the hyphen along with Trade Mark and Winchester stamped on both master and pen blades - now according to what was written in Houston/Zalesky (pg 1 of this thread) that when both blades were marked with Winchester that was their higher quality knives... and than those not marked on both blades were lower quality and more into the later 1930s?? - not clear to me either... Perhaps this is where the catalog cuts from 1919-1942 may play an important role or at least help...

[JAMESC41001]

One thing about Winchesters is that many of them were made by Walden, therefore many patterns are identical to Keen Kutter's and by studying Keen Kutter's, which are fairly well documented, you can learn something about Winchesters.

I believe Winchester knives were made in the Walden plant but I have not found any supporting documentation to confirm this. Have you seen any such documentation you can direct me to or maybe shed some more light on this. I would much appreciate it as I am studying Honk Falls Knives and have been looking closely at Winchester, keen kutter, Walden and of course Napanoch. As you probably know Honks are a bit Tricky. Any info on this would be a great help.
Jay

[peanut740]

I don't know if Winchesters were made in the Walden plant,But Keen Kutters were made in the Winchester plant.

[JAMESC41001]

Great knives Rodger!

[peanut740]

Thanks Jay!

[cbfd]

Some great old Winchester knives showing up in this thread,This is the only one I`ve ever owned,but it is gone now! Bill

[woodwalker]

Some great old Winchester knives showing up in this thread,This is the only one I`ve ever owned,but it is gone now! Bill

My goodness Bill!! I would never been able to turn loose of that one!! I think I would have slept with that one!! Beautiful!!

[stockman]

I don't know if Winchesters were made in the Walden plant,But Keen Kutters were made in the Winchester plant.

Nice knives Roger, I think the 1920 KK is harder to find than the1920 Winchester. I have only seen one of the KK before. Nice old Winchesters in this post.

Harold

[stockman]

Winchesters

Harold

[Tony_Wood]

Lloyd, Bill, Roger, and Howard...
Wow! That old bone is beautiful!!!
Thanks for sharing.

[peanut740]

I don't know if Winchesters were made in the Walden plant,But Keen Kutters were made in the Winchester plant.

Nice knives Roger, I think the 1920 KK is harder to find than the1920 Winchester. I have only seen one of the KK before. Nice old Winchesters in this post.

Harold

Thanks Harold.You are correct about the KK 1920 hunters.I`ve only seen 2 or 3 over the years including the one I have.1920 Winchesters are fairly common,but real good ones are not.I`m on the lookout for etched original Winchesters all the time,but has a whole they are hard to find.You can find at least a 100 etched Remingtons to every Winchester.
Hope to see you in a few weeks in Tulsa.

[stockman]

Very few etched Winchesters of the old ones. Some have been re-etched need to watch for that.

Harold

[peanut740]

So true Harold.A couple of months ago at a gun show a guy took you to a table that had a 1920 he was interesd in.He was concerned it was $400 and had a good etch.Knife had been cleaned and re-etched with a strong dark etch.Original Winchesters etch's were never very dark or deep.

[LongBlade]

Awesome knives Roger, Bill and Harold ...

Roger - The side by side of the Winchester with the Keen Kutter was very cool !! One question- I couldn’t quite read the Keen Kutter model # - was it also exactly the same??

Bill - That is one beauty from end to end !!

Harold - That coke bottle jack and serpentine pen with etch are awesome - the hunter is awful nice too but those other 2 patterns are very appealing !!! The bone is so nice on that pen knife too.. and on the hunter I quite like the jigging pattern the way it was angled from top and bottom from both sides to meet at the shield

Given the info that not many were etched I guess I got lucky on the Jr Stock Whittler as the etch was nice and clear (better seen if you click and enlarge that photo) - I’m not a big fan of celluloid (though this has remained stable since I bought it years back) but that knife was hard to resist when I found it at a little shop off the beaten track.

[stockman]

Thanks Lee

Harold

[stockman]

Lee I missed your whittler and went back, it is really nice.

Harold

[LongBlade]

Thanks Harold ...

[Duffer]

Beautiful Winchesters Roger, Bill, Harold, Woodwalker and Lee!

Thanks Lee for some additional dialogue on my queries about the Goins Winchester description and Trade Mark nuances and date ranges. Over on BF Charlie posted some photos of an early Winchester Harness Jack Trade Mark with dashes and a early Napanoch punch showing this Trade Mark was used earlier and perhaps over a longer range of time than Goins shows. I use Goins’ Encyclopedia all the time but I have to remember it is just brief glance/synopsis of a Cutlery timeline that needs more investigation to be more insightful and definitive if such is possible. Thanks Again!!

[peanut740]

Awesome knives Roger, Bill and Harold ...

Roger - The side by side of the Winchester with the Keen Kutter was very cool !! One question- I couldn’t quite read the Keen Kutter model # - was it also exactly the same??

Bill - That is one beauty from end to end !!

Harold - That coke bottle jack and serpentine pen with etch are awesome - the hunter is awful nice too but those other 2 patterns are very appealing !!! The bone is so nice on that pen knife too.. and on the hunter I quite like the jigging pattern the way it was angled from top and bottom from both sides to meet at the shield

Given the info that not many were etched I guess I got lucky on the Jr Stock Whittler as the etch was nice and clear (better seen if you click and enlarge that photo) - I’m not a big fan of celluloid (though this has remained stable since I bought it years back) but that knife was hard to resist when I found it at a little shop off the beaten track.

Yes Lee,both marked 1920.

[msteele6]

One thing about Winchesters is that many of them were made by Walden, therefore many patterns are identical to Keen Kutter's and by studying Keen Kutter's, which are fairly well documented, you can learn something about Winchesters.

I believe Winchester knives were made in the Walden plant but I have not found any supporting documentation to confirm this. Have you seen any such documentation you can direct me to or maybe shed some more light on this. I would much appreciate it as I am studying Honk Falls Knives and have been looking closely at Winchester, keen kutter, Walden and of course Napanoch. As you probably know Honks are a bit Tricky. Any info on this would be a great help.
Jay

All I know is what is in the books e.g. Stewart and Ritchie, Goins et al. They say that Winchester gained control of Walden's plant in August 1922 and moved the equipment to New Haven in September of 1923, therefore there might have been Winchester knives produced in the Walden plant for about 13 months. The knives themselves tell the story more eloquently, regardless of the physical location of their production the fact that the knives were produced by the same people using the same equipment is apparent from a close examination (e.g. peanut's KK and Winchester folding hunters). Sort of a variation on Levines' dictum "read the knife not the tang stamp".

[JAMESC41001]

Thank you for the response. There are some interesting connections. When Winchester acquired Napanoch Knife they purchased eagle knife co. At about the same time. They were interested in Napanoch for their skilled cutlers. Their interest in Eagle was for there modern production line type of equipment. Eagle was owned by Otto Hemming. Carl Hemming was superintendent. In 1904 the Hemming automatic knife grinder was said to be revolutionary at the time. The Hemming bros invented other automatic knife grinders and handle polishers around 1918. A man named Rudolph Wolf made a new grinding wheel using a compound that could be formulated for different finishes. The combination of the two was another big step forward. Contrary to what the books say not all of the equipment was moved from Walden and some knife production continued in some small way until 1927. Interestingly in the auction papers 24 Hemming grinders (12 left hand and 12 right hand) and 98 wheels are listed. A look at the impirial Schrade auction shows 5 hemming grinders listed In 2004!

There is much more to the story of course. Some Rudolph Wolf papers from 1918 are attached. The full Walden auction papers are available on collectors of Schrade. The possibility exists that the kk and Winchester were made on the same equipment in two different places. Also attached is a Honk Falls hunter. Here again the books say all the equipment was moved to Connecticut. Maybe that’s why they all have 5 editions.

[JAMESC41001]

Just in case anyone is interested in the response to that letter.