Jody Samson Boot Knife

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kootenay joe
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Jody Samson Boot Knife

Post by kootenay joe »

I recently won this knife on ebay. I know of Jody Samson but very little about him other than he was a knife maker with 'striking' designs and he was somehow involved in the origin of Benchmade knives.
This knife is 8 3/8" with polished bone handles. One side of blade has a lion head logo with "Samson" and the other side has a butterfly logo with "Bali-Song" in the middle and a small "R" in a circle for registered trademark.
The same collection had another Samson knife of the same design but with different handles, micarta i think. The markings were the same except underneath the Butterfly is "Made in Japan".
The edges of the choil and of the spine above the choil are sharp, not rounded off at all.
The bolsters have areas of rough grey that does not change with simichrome rub. I don't think this is oxidation. Maybe one of the knifemakers here knows what causes this.
Is this a Jody Samson made custom knife ?
Or, a production knife from Japan which did not get the "Made in Japan" marking ?
The registered butterfly logo might give a time frame for those familiar with Jody Samson history.
If you have a link to the story of Jody Samson knifemaker to Bali-Song to Benchmade can you please post it (the link).
Any info you have about this knife i am keen to hear.
thanks, kj
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dcgm4
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Re: Jodi Samson Boot Knife

Post by dcgm4 »

Very cool knife, kj! ::tu:: I'm no expert, but the rough gray areas look like where you would place your fingers if you were grasping the knife by the handle and the tang. Maybe it's wear from someone holding the knife repeatedly like that, or it could be the areas were made to be a bit rough to enhance the grip.

Here are some links about Jody Samson. Hope these have the information you're looking for.

http://jodysamson.com/about.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jody_Samson
Dave

Always looking for vintage knives with Virginia, Maryland, or Washington D.C. tang stamps. Any condition.
kootenay joe
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Re: Jodi Samson Boot Knife

Post by kootenay joe »

Thanks Dave. Those 2 links contain pretty much what i have been able to find and lack the details i am hoping to find.
How & when did he go from making custom knives to having his designs made in Japan and branded with his own name ?
Who in Japan did he select to make his knives ? Hiro ??
Was the Benchmade butterfly logo originally Jody Samson's logo ? and why does my knife have the butterfly logo ?
And his connection with Bali-Song knives and then Benchmade ? It is mentioned in the above links but no real information as to his degree of involvement.
Lots to learn here.
kj
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Quick Steel
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Re: Jody Samson Boot Knife

Post by Quick Steel »

Certainly an interesting and unusual design for a boot knife. I like it very much. My one reservation is why he would leave the choil edges sharp. Perhaps there was a purpose for that I just don't recognize.
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dcgm4
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Re: Jody Samson Boot Knife

Post by dcgm4 »

kj, to find that information researching Benchmade would be more fruitful. But I can answer some of your questions.

As the previous links said, Jody Sampson became a full-time knife maker in 1974 and that he was hired by Les de Asis in 1979 as a knife designer. The link also states de Asis credits Samson with grinding every custom balisong from 1979 to 1994. This means not only did he design knives, but he also made the company's custom builds. The below link about Benchmade says it was founded in 1979 as Bali-Song and in 1979 the company's original Bali-Song design by Jody Samson was awarded Blade Magazine's Knife of the Year Award. As to why he took the job, that I don't know. Maybe he just wanted a steady paycheck. It's possible he designed knives for Bali-Song and still made custom knives, like many custom knife makers do today. ::shrug::

As for the butterfly logo, that was not Jody Samson's originally. The reason Benchmade was started as Bali-Song is because it originally made balisongs. Balisongs are also called butterfly knives, hence the butterfly logo. The reason your knife has the butterfly logo is because it is a Bali-Song knife. It has Jody Samson's logo because it is his design. He didn't actually make that knife, but he let Bali-Song use his design which outsourced production to a Japanese company. It's like how Case produces knives designed by Tony Bose and Bose's stamp is on the back of those knives' tangs. Another example is Spyderco's Chinese folder. Bob Lum designed the knife and collaborated on a production version. This is why Spyderco's Chinese folders also have Bob Lum's logo and the Spyderco logo on them. As for which Japanese company produced knives for Bali-Song, I don't have that information.

There's still a lot of questions to be answered. Most likely researching Benchmade's and Les de Asis' histories will lead you to those answers and provide more specifics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benchmade

https://www.benchmade.com/benchmade-history
Dave

Always looking for vintage knives with Virginia, Maryland, or Washington D.C. tang stamps. Any condition.
kootenay joe
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Re: Jody Samson Boot Knife

Post by kootenay joe »

Dave, again, Thank You.
Jody Sampson did make some (at least 1 and likely more) of this Boot knife. Would these have only the Lion head with "Samson" and no butterfly logo if made before he began working for Bali-Song ?
Could these markings indicate a knife made by Jody while working for Bali-Song ? If made in Japan it should be marked as such.
'Reading' the knife, the lack of finishing of the choil edges is not like any higher end Japan knife of the 1990's that i have or have had. All were perfectly finished in all areas.
If this knife design dates to Jody's time with Bali-Song, could this be the knife that he made as the 'prototype' for the Japan manufacturer to copy ? Hence no need to properly finish choil edges and maybe bolsters as well ?
As i mentioned i have seen the same knife with micarta handles that is marked "Made In Japan".
This knife i have came from a collection with some very high end knives. The collector was definitely a knowledgeable 'knifer' and maybe one with connections that allowed him to score some rather special knives.
kj
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dcgm4
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Re: Jody Samson Boot Knife

Post by dcgm4 »

Yes. If Jody Samson made that knife prior to working at Bali-Song it wouldn't have the butterfly logo. The butterfly logo was the property of Bali-Song (later renamed Pacific Cutlery) and is now the property of Benchmade. Benchmade being the company Les de Asis started in 1988 after his first company went bankrupt. The butterfly logo didn't even exist before Bali-Song was founded, so there's no way Samson could've used the butterfly logo before then

Your knife was made for Bali-Song before it changed it's name to Pacific Cutlery. Knives after the name change were marked "Pacific Cutlery" along with the butterfly logo. I don't know what year that boot knife first came into production, but it was prior to the name change. These pictures show how Pacific Cutlery knives were marked.
Weehawk_Boot_Knife_1.jpg
Weehawk_Boot_Knife_2.jpg
It is highly unlikely Jody Samson actually made that knife. For him to have made that knife, a couple of things would have needed to occur. First, he would have needed to make knife for Bali-Song/Benchmade. It wouldn't have the butterfly logo if it were a custom knife. Second, he would have needed to make the knife while in Japan. Being marked with the country of origin is required by U.S. law (Tariff Act of 1930) for almost all imports. Unless he made the knife in Japan, there's no reason for it to be marked as such.

You mentioned how you saw another knife like it was marked "Made In Japan" as opposed to your knife which is just marked "Japan". That doesn't really mean anything. The Tariff Act of 1930 doesn't have just one single way an import needs to be marked for the country of origin. While uncommon, for some imports you don't even need to explicitly state the country of origin; in some instances a product using the country of origin's language (e.g. in the directions of how to use the product/on the packaging) or even just the flag or symbols of the country of origin are good enough. Most likely the reason your knife is marked differently is because either the two knives were made by different manufacturers or were made at different times. Possibly both.

The knife is also unlikely to be a prototype. For one, most prototypes are marked "Prototype". Also, the "Japan" marking is problematic. If it were a prototype made by Samson while in the U.S., then there's no reason for it to be marked "Japan". If, in another scenario, Samson went to Japan to make the knife and give it to the company producing the knife, then it's unlikely it would be marked "Japan" unless he was planning on importing the prototype for sale in the U.S. To me, if the knife were a prototype it doesn't make much sense to travel to Japan just to make the knife when you could make it in your home country using your own equipment and then ship it over.

Bottom line is that based on the markings, your knife is almost certainly a production piece. While technically it could be possible Jody Samson personally made the knife, all the available evidence points to the opposite. Think of Occam's razor in this situation: the answer that requires the fewest assumptions is usually the correct one.
Dave

Always looking for vintage knives with Virginia, Maryland, or Washington D.C. tang stamps. Any condition.
kootenay joe
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Re: Jody Samson Boot Knife

Post by kootenay joe »

Dave i very much appreciate all this help.
One important point i need to correct: you say "You mentioned how you saw another knife like it was marked "Made In Japan" as opposed to your knife which is just marked "Japan"."
My knife is NOT marked "Japan". It is only marked "Samson" and "Bali-Song".
This is why i ask if it could have been made by Jody while working at Bali-Song; i.e. not a Japan made production knife but a Jody Samson custom knife which maybe was a prototype and hence the lack of some finishing details.
kj

The Micarta handle knife you posted is the made in Japan one and it looks better finished than my knife. The seller had an example identical to the one you have posted in addition to the knife i won.
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dcgm4
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Re: Jody Samson Boot Knife

Post by dcgm4 »

Sorry, kj. I misread your previous post. :oops: Since the knife isn't marked with a country of origin, then obviously it was made in the U.S. That makes it much more likely to have been made by Jody Samson. While it may be a prototype, another possibility is it was a custom order. Remember the part about Les de Asis crediting Samson with grinding every custom balisong from 1979 to 1994? There's a good chance your knife is one of those customs.
Dave

Always looking for vintage knives with Virginia, Maryland, or Washington D.C. tang stamps. Any condition.
kootenay joe
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Re: Jody Samson Boot Knife

Post by kootenay joe »

Thanks Dave. I was not sure if by "Bali-Song" he meant the butterfly knives only or all knives made at Bali-Song.
I'm feeling better now that there is a possibility that i have a custom made Jody Samson knife. I paid $155 which for a custom knife by a famous maker is, i think, a good deal for the buyer. However i don't know the market for Jody Samson knives. If anyone here does please post your thoughts.
kj
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terryl308
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Re: Jody Samson Boot Knife

Post by terryl308 »

KJ, Nice Samson knife, I think you got a really good deal on the 155 purchase price! I know nothing about the history of Jody Samson, but clearly was a talent. Very nice lines and shaping of the blade and handle. ::tu:: Terry
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kootenay joe
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Re: Jody Samson Boot Knife

Post by kootenay joe »

Thanks Terry. Mr. Samson became quite famous for his sword designs used in the "Conan Barbarian" movies. If you google his name you will see some knives you might recognize that were made by Mr. Samson.
kj
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wazu013
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Re: Jody Samson Boot Knife

Post by wazu013 »

Boot knife.JPG
Price list.JPG
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kootenay joe
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Re: Jody Samson Boot Knife

Post by kootenay joe »

Wow ! Thanks for posting the old flyer & price list. Do you know if these Wee Hawks are the ones made by Jody in the Bali-Song shop or the ones they had made in Japan ?
kj
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Re: Jody Samson Boot Knife

Post by wazu013 »

kootenay joe wrote:Wow ! Thanks for posting the old flyer & price list. Do you know if these Wee Hawks are the ones made by Jody in the Bali-Song shop or the ones they had made in Japan ?
kj
I wish I could help you with that. I can't find any reference in the catalog archives that refers to Jody actually doing the grinding. They simply refer to it as his design. You might want to send an email to Benchmade for an answer.
Good luck,
Mike
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kootenay joe
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Re: Jody Samson Boot Knife

Post by kootenay joe »

I will email Benchmade and will post any info received here.
Thanks wazu.
kj
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