Rodgers Quill Knife

[Sheffieldguy]

Here’s a Rodgers quill knife I recently picked up. Closed length is 3”. Great snap with a half stop. Gorgeous pearl handles. The tang is stamped W R and the crown, Rodgers, Cutlers To Their Magesties, Patent. Can anyone help with dating this???

[FRJ]

Can't say I've seen a quill in that fine of condition in a while. That it was made by Joseph Rodgers makes it especially nice.

Goin's says your stamp dates 1837-1901

[Gunsil]

I believe FRJ is mistaken. V crown R would be for Queen Victoria, 1837-1901. W crown R is for King Willam, 1831-1837 if my memory serves me, I am away from home so my books are not handy. Your little knife is VERY old and very nice!!

[Sheffieldguy]

Thanks for your input! It’s the nicest quill knife that I’ve come across. The only blemish is some light pitting on the blade. I picked it up for $68. So looks like a great buy!

[FRJ]

Gunsil is correct on that stamp. W crown R, 1830-1837. Good catch Gunsil

Sorry about the error.

[kootenay joe]

I know Goins shows 1837 as the start date for "V crown R Their Majesties" but i have seen "Their Majesties" being referred to as from late 1890's to very early 1900's.
I think "V crown R Her Majesty" is the older stamping in the V crown R era and the "V crown R Their Majesties" was used only at the end of the V crown R era.
kj

[LongBlade]

And what if the VcrownR has nothing alluding to majesty at all??? Is that earlier in the 1837 to 1901 range??

I do have a GcrownR offset - my oldest knife and that is 1820-1830 and probably Rodgers made from my understanding - guess that is the "R" - so are all WcrownR, VcrownR and even WcrownR all made by Joseph Rodgers?? That was never clear to me....

Thanks....

[Gunsil]

Lee, all the crown marked knives simply mean they had a royal warrant, that is that they were approved for purchase by the ruler at at the time for purchase for royal households and members. The R is not for Rodgers at all, it is for Rex (king) or Regina (queen). Joseph Rodgers was not the only cutlery firm with a royal warrant so the answer is no, not all crown marked knives were made by Joseph Rodgers. It wasn't only cutlery that had royal warrant marks, they can be found on many other items. G crown R knives can also be made after 1910 during the reign of King George V, although those made for export to the USA will have the England mark, but those not made for sale here may not have the England mark but will have the G R mark with the crown.

[LongBlade]

Thanks Gene ... However on my knife the GcrownR is offset and my understanding is that is an earlier mark rather than later because of the offset nature...

Not great photos from long ago but here's the GcrownR knife...

[kootenay joe]

As far as i know Jos Rodgers was the only knife manufacturer to mark "Cutlers to Her/His/Their Majesty/Majesties". It was not marked on all knives and i believe it was last used circa 1937.
I have never seen a comprehensive timeline of the various J.R. markings.
kj

[LongBlade]

Thanks KJ ... Just as an aside - I had information from a very trusted source with many years of knife collecting that the GcrownR quill knife of mine above was Rodgers and the "elegance" of it (tortoise, sterling silver band and what is believed to be a gold plated bolster - perhaps brass but certainly appears to be gold to the few who have seen it in hand) certainly suggests Rodgers to me as well... The VcrownR quill in which I showed the tang stamp above has carved natural "material" was most likely Rodgers as well but that is just my opinion and never actually delved into it further - here's that knife below: -

KJ - I think there is dating charts for royal appointments in Levines and the Houston/Zalesky books, not sure about Tweedale and although I have the latter book as well I haven't looked for a dating chart of royal appointments in it...

[FRJ]

Beautiful old knives, Lee.

[GerryD]

Heres my little G crown R patent quill knife ivory scales. The guys on the now defunct BB site reckoned it was George III

gerry

[Gunsil]

Sweet knife Lee. It is not the crown offset from the GR that means older, many later VR knives will have that. What makes it an older (or really old) is the fact that the stamps were hand carved rather than machine made as the later knives exhibit. What is the maker's name below the royal warrant mark??

[LongBlade]

Thanks Joe and Gene and nice knife GerryD It looks similar in a way to mine with the carved scales ...

Gene - I wish I knew what the marks were below the royal warrant mark and I wonder if the GcrownR is a carved stamp given the look (thats a new one for me as being carved so not even sure what to look for though the VcrownR knife no doubt looks to be stamped). I played jeopardy with the missing letters for a long time due to the wear on the stamp, and even had some help from smiling-knife & a few others but just can't make it out. Given all that - For the GcrownR it looks like "Fatery" and under the VcrownR it is no doubt jeopardy at its best so here is what I see with options - ? R ? (maybe a P R ? - maybe M R ?) and under those letters W E I ? (at least one more letter - maybe 2) OR W L L OR W I L OR WEL.... Hows that for confusing .... My feeling is that the knives may have been made for a retailer and perhaps those are the stamps - but just don't know.

Post-Edit - Forgot to add that if it is not a maker and in addition to the possibility of a retailer than perhaps it was made outside of Sheffield - maybe London, Birmingham etc.. but I am not aware and really don't know if any royal warranted makers were located outside of Sheffield...

[kootenay joe]

LongBlade, in the post above this one, which knife are you speaking of ?
kj

[LongBlade]

Kj - I was referring to both knives and the marks in reply to Gunsil's question as to makers marks below the royal warrant marks - I can't really figure them out but when I enlarged GerryD's knife just above his maker mark (or whatever it is such as a retailer) it is exactly the same as the marks on my GcrownR knife if I am not mistaken - looks like "Fatery" but I may be wrong... the VcrownR knife marks are just so worn it is really difficult to decipher though I noted just above what I think I am seeing... if you enlarge the stamps of both knives you can basically see what I am able to using magnification so if anybody has a better guess please share it...

Cheers
Lee

[kootenay joe]

I believe the word is "Patent".
kj

[LongBlade]

I believe the word is "Patent".
kj

Thanks KJ - .. I guess "Patent" is possible and I can see that word as well now that you mention it but just wonder if my brain is seeing patent from the power of suggestion ) - but what does it refer to?? Patent as in a patent on the knife or ???

[kootenay joe]

"Patent", "Pat. Pending" and a few other similar terms are fairly common on older knives.
Some aspect of the construction of that knife is patented. Could be how the handle pieces are attached, or a bolster design, etc.
If the patent number was known it can be looked up and the original application for a patent can be seen as these records are kept. It is country specific; e.g. a patent taken out in USA is registered with the U.S. Patent office, etc.
kj

[LongBlade]

Thanks again KJ ... I indeed understand the word patent but does it date back to the early 1800s and in England?? Perhaps but just never did see any patents from that earlier part of the 1800s.... interesting.....

Note in edit - Just did a quick search and in fact patents started in the 16-1700s - here's a link providing evidence - https://www.bl.uk/help/find-early-british-patents ... I won't have much more time to search this the next few days but will do!!

[Gunsil]

Pretty much all pre-1820 or so knives had hand carved stamps used for the markings. This does not mean the marks on the knife were hand carved or engraved in the blade, it means the stamp itself was hand carved. Usually pretty easy to see, letters will often not be so exactly the same as the mark from a machine made stamp. I doubt the mark is a retailer mark, this was not the common practice back then as it became later in the 19th century.