Is The Case Classic 098 pattern based on this?

There were 37 knife patterns manufactured in the early to mid 1990s that make up the Case Classic line of knives. They are the product of Jim Parker's realization of a dream to replicate classic knives of many years past.
Robo
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Is The Case Classic 098 pattern based on this?

Postby Robo » Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:37 am

I own--and love-- a number of Case Classic 098 pattern toothpicks (with the 5 1/2 inch frame). Based on the few photos of the original 098s I'd been able to find, I concluded that the powers-that-be in the Classic line pretty much designed their own version of this pattern. My reasoning:

1) the shape of the Tested and Bradford Era 098 frames is a bit curvier with a slightly broader "chest" beneath the bolster and a narrower, slightly longer end cap (See first photo).
IMG_8309.jpg


2) The blade on the Tested Era 098s (And the one Bradford Era 61098 I own) is a wide flat-ground clip with a low pull; and that on the Classic 098 is a narrow saber-ground blade with a bayonet- like deep swedge and a high pull. (see second photo)
IMG_8310-1.jpg


But I recently found a knife listed by R. Davies that has caused me to doubt all the above. This is a W.R. Case & Sons Era 098 with a frame (as far as I can tell) that looks exactly like the Classic Frame! (I'll include a link so you can check out all the photos of this knife but I include one for a quick comparison). (see third photo)
s-l1600-3.jpg
https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-Vintage-W ... SwGUBaMWmh

This is the first ever 098 I've seen with this less curvy shape--sorta like a stouter Straight XX Era 093. The blade is still different and unfortunately this one suffers blade loss that mis-shapes the point somewhat. But, having a saber grind, it is a bit closer to the Classic 098 blade. (It looks to me kinda like the ones used on the Jumbo Trappers Mr. Davies lists.)

I'm wondering if any of y'all own a WR Case & Sons Era 098 with a blade that matches the Classic. It would be awesome to see pictures or at least hear your thoughts on this subject. I only started collecting a year and a half or so ago and have yet to see a knife show as I don't believe there are any in New Jersey. So, besides the three original 098s I've acquired, my study of the pattern is based mostly on the pictures Older Dogs and R. Davies have on Ebay and one or two I've found in the forums. Sergeant (RIP) only shows a Tested era 098.
Are all the other Classic patterns perfectly matched--design-wise-- to a source era knife? I know liberties were taken with bone color, tang markings, etc.
Thanks for any thoughts you might provide!

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peanut740
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Re: Is The Case Classic 098 pattern based on this?

Postby peanut740 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:05 pm

The dies used to make the classic toothpicks are owned by Bluegrass Cutlery and I don't believe they ever saw the inside of a Case factory.They may be similar but I bet there are differences.
Roger

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Re: Is The Case Classic 098 pattern based on this?

Postby RalphAlsip » Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:43 pm

I feel like the Case Classic 098 "borrows" some from the 095, 098, and non-Case knives like the Napanoch banana trapper (comparable to the Case 51) pattern.

Here is a blade comparison picture along with a couple of pictures of my Case Tested XX 61098.
Attachments
Compare WR Case & Sons 095 Blade to Case Tested XX 098 Blade.jpg
098 Blade Compare
Case Tested XX 61098 #1 small.jpg
Case Tested XX 61098
Case Tested XX 61098 #3a small.jpg

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Re: Is The Case Classic 098 pattern based on this?

Postby Robo » Sat Sep 01, 2018 4:16 am

Thanks for your thoughts, fellas! Ralph, I found the pics of you 098 a while back and put them in my Toothpick Pattern Folder--and a link to it on my desk top! What an awesome specimen! I now own three--and I love them-- but they all have "Eigthies" my term for blades that are just a bit short. My kids think I'm nuts for obsessing over that stinking 1/8 inch--and they're correct, I am nuts--But old man Case wanted 4.25" blades on these knives and that's what I'd like to have on mine! Anyway thanks for sharing. See you guys around the forum...
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IMG_8403.jpg

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Re: Is The Case Classic 098 pattern based on this?

Postby Robo » Sat Sep 01, 2018 4:29 am

PS: Ralph, I noticed you used a blade from a pre Tested Era 095 pattern knife above to make your point about the 098 Classic. Is this 095 in your collection? If yes, I'm curious to know if the frame/handle on it is the same size as the 093 pattern (5") or is it the ever so slightly scaled down size of the Tested Era 095s (4 7/8"). I've determined the differences between the tested era 095 and 093 patterns; but I don't have a pre-Tested era 095 to compare to my pre-Tested Era 093s. Any insights, pictures, etc., you can provide would be truly appreciated.

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Re: Is The Case Classic 098 pattern based on this?

Postby RalphAlsip » Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:37 pm

Robo wrote:I'm curious to know if the frame/handle on it is the same size as the 093 pattern (5") or is it the ever so slightly scaled down size of the Tested Era 095s (4 7/8").

Robo, My 095 is a re-handled B1095. The "B" means the handle was some kind of man-made material (e.g., celluloid) which probably went bad. I measured it with a caliper (see picture below). The caliper says 4.95 inches, but I don't believe I had the knife properly matched up with the jaws of the caliper (please note the red lines annotated into the image). So my guess is that the length would pretty much be spot on the 5 inch length documented for the 095. Five (5) inches is also the documented length for the 093. The 098 is 5 1/2 inches. The blade on the 095 has a different shape than the 093. My 095 blade has been sharpened and may be tad short.

My 098 is in original condition with original blade finish and factory edge with no evidence of buffing. Included is a picture showing where the blade tip lands in the blade well. I agree with you that a short blade is one of the most noticeable things that detracts from an old knife that you want to be perfect :).

Your group of 098's is really nice! ::tu:: ::tu::

If you don't have a CD ROM version of Sargent's Guide to Knives & Razors 7th edition, I would strongly recommend getting it if you enjoy learning about old Case knives. Basically, the book is a PDF document that can search easily on your computer. You can probably find it from places other than Amazon, like the Sargent's themselves if you search.

https://www.amazon.com/American-Premium-Guide-Knives-Razors/dp/144020375X
Attachments
B1095 Length.jpg
Case Tested XX 61098 #5 Blade Length.jpg

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Re: Is The Case Classic 098 pattern based on this?

Postby Robo » Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:52 am

Ralph, thanks so much for the photos/intel. I've measured the handle dies of the two 093s I own
(both pre Tested "WR Case & Sons") and they too are 5" which begs the question, where is the design change that would warrant a new pattern designation? "such are the mysteries of the Case pocket knife numbering system" (Pfeiffer 2015 p.43). I gotta get my mitts on a couple of those Pre Tested 095s for study. At the moment Older Dogs is the only seller on Ebay who has one but it's 800.00 bucks. I'm from Jersey so I've yet to go to a legit Knife show. My fantasy is that they'd have what I want in spades and cheeper than Ebay. I have a now well worn Sargent's (RIP) (which came with the PDF); thanks all the same for the heads up.

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Re: Is The Case Classic 098 pattern based on this?

Postby Robo » Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:54 pm

I believe I have solved the mystery of this unusual 61098 pattern. It is a large Tickler Case contracted from Schatt & Morgan. It wouldn't make sense for Case to have two distinctly different Handle dies for the pattern. It WOULD make sense for them to contract a bunch from their Neighbors at S&M. Why? In order to offer a large Tickler with a saber grind blade? To fill a production gap? S&M gave them a deal they couldn't refuse? That's the mystery but the surviving examples are the fact. Below is a very well preserved example of The S&M I recently acquired. Queen City continued to make the big 5.5" But I believe production ceased going into the "Queen" Era. It seems Landers Frary & Clark also contracted this knife from S&M or QC. CHEERS and thanks to all who pitched in on this.
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IMG_8778.jpg
IMG_8791.jpg

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Re: Is The Case Classic 098 pattern based on this?

Postby peanut740 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:05 am

Robo wrote:I believe I have solved the mystery of this unusual 61098 pattern. It is a large Tickler Case contracted from Schatt & Morgan. It wouldn't make sense for Case to have two distinctly different Handle dies for the pattern. It WOULD make sense for them to contract a bunch from their Neighbors at S&M. Why? In order to offer a large Tickler with a saber grind blade? To fill a production gap? S&M gave them a deal they couldn't refuse? That's the mystery but the surviving examples are the fact. Below is a very well preserved example of The S&M I recently acquired. Queen City continued to make the big 5.5" But I believe production ceased going into the "Queen" Era. It seems Landers Frary & Clark also contracted this knife from S&M or QC. CHEERS and thanks to all who pitched in on this.

David Clark may be able to answer that.He has a book from Schatt & Morgan with all the contract work they did for others,patterns,amounts made etc.
Roger


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