Who Made Case Classics?

[Paladin]

In a discussion today at our little knife club I made the comment that Case did not make the Case Classic knives. No one agreed.
I was under the impression the Queen made them and everyone else thought Case made them.
Can any of the Calssic collectors bail me out here or did I just step in it??

Thanks,, Ray

[Classic Case]

Case made 4 patterns , queen made the rest, made them for blue grass, who put their name on them.

[CCBill]

What Case Classic said.
The 4 patterns that were made in the W.R. Case factory were the 2100 saddlehorn, 254 trapper, 394 gunboat canoe and 488 congress. Queen made the rest.
...CCBill...

[jerryd6818]

Yepper. Them's the facts Jack.

There ya go Ray. Take that back and stick it up their wazoo.

[deanmm56]

Ray,

I've been a Case Classics fan for a number of years ...... along with the four patterns earlier mentioned there " MIGHT " be a fifth pattern that was made by Case in small quantities ....... the model 91 whittler was supposed to be made in house by Case and according to Jim PArker and Bill Penley, a certain amount were before Queens took over production.

[Paladin]

Thanks, guys!
As always, I appreciate the help, especially when you jump in on my side.

Ray

[lbsmobile]

I've seen this question plenty and I'm always amazed when this simple answer is not questioned. I'm not claiming divine knowledge here in any form. And, In no way do I mean disrespect to Bill or Chris - both of which are knowledgeable and share in a mentorship which I have benefited from for many years. Without question the consensus of the answer, as given, is 100% correct. What I am saying is maybe there's more going on than just 'WRC made a few and Queen made the rest'. I'm not going to throw names around to prove any point - just posing the question… In which semantical form are we using the word 'MADE'?

When JP acquired Case, he discovered that all the 'original' Case tooling etc was either destroyed, worn or long-gone with anything of value being previously purchased by Charlie Dorton of BULLDOG KNIVES. Charlie was also a partner in the company Blue Grass Cutlery. A business relationship with BGC was facilitated in order to have these Classic knives made as close to the originals as possible by using the original tooling. With a Trademark Royalty contract in hand, BGC began producing the Classics for PKCS.

The knife industry is and always has been attached at the hip, so to speak.(not a p.c. statement but you guy's know what I mean) And, I think there's a few questions that every Classics collector should consider :

1. Have you ever had a look at the BGC facility? A very large building with windows running the length of every wall, Does it look like a factory, a warehouse or an office building?
2. Do you think BGC loaded up all the tooling, dies etc(previously acquired to produce other brands) and hauled them to Queen?
3. Is it possible that Queen 'hafted' classics from parts BGC imported as well as jigged, dyed and stamped out on the original equipment bought from WRC - perhaps in their(BGC's) own building?
4. Did even a single knife get an engraving of any kind at Queen?
5. Is it just possible that yet another source hafted some of the Classics? TO POINT, If BGC has the Trademark contract and commissions Queen to make 'some' of the Classics, couldn't BGC commission another source? If this answer is yes, are they inferior to those hafted at Queen?

In note, Queen does list the Classics in their repertoire but, I've yet to see a single thing 'official' in print stating that WRC made four patterns and Queen made ALL the others. The first part of that statement, yes… the second part - only as BGC made the rest.

Again, this is not meant as an aggressive -OR- disrespectful post. Worst case scenario, an alternate opinion. I learn something every year and my intention is, as it always has been, to share information from it's respective - trusted source and to promote fellow Classic collectors to get personally involved with the history of these 37 patterns while proving to themselves what the facts are.

If you haven't already, get your hands on literature covering the Case family brands. Compare imported and stateside productions. Get out to the knife shows, inspect these knives with your own hands - you don't have to own every knife, pick a sub-topic from the Classics program and talk to the vendors - BUY A KNIFE OR TWO, Don't take up their time and disagree with them… LISTEN. In time, you should find a nugget or two that applies to your interest . MOST IMPORTANTLY, key people from the companies listed here are still out there at these shows!!! Individuals directly involved with these knives - from their conception - are at the shows!!! Do some business with them, get to know them and… LISTEN.

[deanmm56]

Ron,

I may have posted these photos in the past .... not sure ? Anyway, here is the BGC warehouse / factory .

[lbsmobile]

Dean,

it's good to hear from you and thanks for sharing the pictures...
- - - - -
I've but lately come to know of your health issues(missed a few months myself) and it's good to learn they've turned out favorably.
Regards

[jerryd6818]

Dean, were you ever inside or just got the outside pictures?

[deanmm56]

Jerry,

I've been in the office section of the warehouse and had a few discussions with David Scott, very nice gentleman by the way. But no, never in the factory section of the warehouse. I have talked to some of the locals in the area and they said it was a great place to work back in the 90s'.

According to Mr. Scott, all of the tooling dyes from the old Case manufacturing plant are at the BGC warehouse. Since I didn't see the factory part I cannot say yay or nay.

My personal opinion is this ....... you don't need that big of a warehouse just to ship and receive knives from Queens, Case or anyone else ..... something in the way of manufacturing was an important part of that town in the 90s'.

PS : BGC is located in Manchester, Ohio ..... southern part of Ohio

[robinetn]

Tim Scott definitely makes a lot of display cases there .

Bob

[zp4ja]

Hello All,

I know I am a little late to the topic here. What years are we referring to here? In no way am I a Case Classic or Case expert for that matter. I don't have a lot of knowledge in this area. I do know the following...
I am not sure what years George Brinkley was at the helm of Case. I do however have a letter from him to my Dad dated 11-07-1996. The letter is on Case letterhead and in response to a letter my Dad sent regarding the quality of knives that he received under production from Blue Grass. The letter basically states that "thanks for taking the time, yada , yada". He apologizes that he knives was not up to expectations and mentions that the contract with BGC will be expiring at the end of 1996 and they will not be renewing the contract for a variety of reasons, mainly inabilty to control quality of knives bearing the Case name.

Maybe Blue Grass sub contracted out production? I don't know. My understanding either way is that the contract with BGC was not renewed at the end of 1996.

Not sure how this fits in to the timeframe on this post or relevance for that matter. i thought this might be of some value.

[Aimus Moses]

I thought there were some Case Classic series knives contract made for S.M.K.W.'s in 1997 and 1998? The supposed patterns made were the 340 large stockman, the Cheetah, and the E-Toe.

Aimus

[Classic Case]

I think it was only the 340's that were made for smkw. I've never seen a toe dated after 96. I think they had to finish out the contract with the last of the 340 patterns.

[Aimus Moses]

Ray,

I've been a Case Classics fan for a number of years ...... along with the four patterns earlier mentioned there " MIGHT " be a fifth pattern that was made by Case in small quantities ....... the model 91 whittler was supposed to be made in house by Case and according to Jim PArker and Bill Penley, a certain amount were before Queens took over production.

Dean, I spoke with Buzz Parker about the 91 and 091 Case Classic pattern knives. He told me that none of the 91 & 091 pattern knives were made at the Case Cutlery factory. He stated that all of the 91 & 091 pattern knives were made at the Queen Cutlery factory by Queen like all of the other Case Classic series knives, less the 4 Case Classic patterns made in house at Case Cutlery. He also stated that there is no difference at all in the 91 and the 091 pattern knives but said other than Queen Cutlery making a mistake or doing it for some other reason that was unknown to him, he didn't know why there were two pattern numbers for the exact same knife.

Aimus

[deanmm56]

Aimus,

There is definitely 2 distinct sizes for the 91 whittler, large frame and small frame.

Hate to be the odd man out but I'm going to disagree with Buzz as far as case's involvement with the first production of the 91 whittler.

There are a few notations in Jim Parker's book concerning development and manufacturing of the 91 ..... said to be Jim Parker's favorite.
I'll try to look up reference page #'s for you.

[Elvis]

You are correct Dean. I own a Proto that is stamped 6391 (of course stampings don't always mean much on Classic Proto's) and when shown on the Case Classics Club Forum I was told by it's founder that the only way to tell for sure which model it was, was to do a side-by-side comparison with another to see which one was the large frame and which was the small frame. Since this is the only 91 I own, that didn't happen, but here's the knife.

[deanmm56]

Bob,

NICE KNIFE !!!! If memory serves me correctly you have a prototype Blue Lapis ..... I think ????? There again, I'll have to do my research but the folks over at Case Classics Club forum could tell you in a jiffy what it is.

As far as the large frame vs. small frame 91's ..... I know Queens made both and I believe the earlier models were the larger frame knives. Jim Parker does make reference to the 91 being the first in the series and made by Case ...... short lived as he struck up a deal with Queens shortly after the conception of the Classics ..... I'm assuming it all had to do with cost and the bottom line.

[Aimus Moses]

I don't know Dean. Just passing on what Buzz said when I asked him a while back. I'd like to know for sure though. There is so much secrecy connected with the Case Classic knives in general that I think it hurts them to a certain point.

Aimus

[Paladin]

By the way, and in a shamless plug, I have recently gotten my hands on one of the Case Classic Books by Parker. It is listed in my store with a link below.

Ray

[deanmm56]

Great book filled with a ton of information .... mine is signed by Jim and Bill.

Aimus ..... I agree there is a great deal of secrecy to the Classics and only a handful of people know the whole truth about them.

As for me, I just read, listen and learn ... oh, forgot to mention collect a few of them as well.

[Aimus Moses]

I try to do the same Dean. Read, listen, and learn but it seems that a person can never find any answers to honest questions when it comes to the Classics. And to listen, a person hears one story then hears a totally different story, and all the stories come from different people close to the fellers that had the Case Classics made up. When that happens, the learning part sorta gets mixed up because a person doesn't know who or what to believe so they can learn it. What I'd really like to know is why all the mystery about the Case Classic knives? What is so bad or so important that it needs to be hidden or covered up in mystery? There's been so many tales and stories about the Case Classics that you'd think the Secret Service had a bunch of hookers in the factory when the knives were being made and the people at the factory were forced at gun point to throw out all those different cover stories. Either that or the Case Classic knives were made at Area 51. I just take what I hear about the Case Classic knives with a grain of salt and except them as just what they are, well made knives.

Aimus

[just bob]

I'll post these comments as "for what they are worth" I'm no expert on this subject. Within the last year I purchased a Case Classic, I think it was 7391 pattern with abalone looking handles. The knife had started to out gas, the handle material was beginning to pull away from the bolsters, and the bolsters were tarnished. I thought I had caught this at the early stage and there was hope for the knife. I packaged it up and sent it to Case. I told them I didn't think it was a manufactures defect and would be happy to have new handles put on the knife with any material that was available. I would pay for these repairs out of pocket. They sent the knife back saying that JP had contracted with BGC to have this knife made and they didn't have a single part in their entire plant that would work on the knife. I contacted BGC and asked them to repair the knife or provide me information on where I might purchase the handle material. After a couple of weeks I got an email from them saying that BGC did not repair knives or provide replacement parts. OK then. The knife is in KY at a knife repair shop.
More recently I purchased a Case Classic 6391 with bone handles. Some moron had used the knife for a scraper and had broken the big blade. I see that both Case and Winchester (BGC) still make a 6391. I sent the knife to Case offering to pay for the repair out of pocket. They sent the knife back with the same story.
Case knives, Winchester, Queen, and BGC all come with lifetime warranties. If BGC is just an outlet how do they warranty a product once the initial supply has been exhausted? On their web site they say they are "manufacturers'" of John Primble and Winchester quality cutlery products.
Looks to me like no one wants to be the daddy of this mess.
I'll add a question here. While looking at knives recently I feel sure I saw a Case Classic I2109X small copperhead knife with white handles. It didn't occur to me at the time, but is this ivory and was ivory used on the Case Classics? I don't have any reference material.

[Americanknifejunky]

Sorry, I know I'm awful late on this topic/mystery of the Case Classics, but in regards to the questioned posted: "Did they make any Case Classics in Ivory handles?"........I believe they did. I could almost swear I saw a few of the whittlers with Ivory handles for sale by Frank Powers. These came from JP's personal collection and Frank purchased the entire lot several years ago. Each knife comes with a COA signed by JP, along with yet another letter signed by Buzz. I believe most of these knives I'm speaking of are prototypes. Funny thing, I was just doing some knife research & learning tonight by myself & got to wondering about the story of these Classics being made by Queen, which brought me here after a google search. All the answers on this topic are quite fascinating, and my thanks goes out to all who contributed. Hell, they might as well've been made at area 51. LOL. -Steve-