Scales
Scales
I’ve got to humble myself and ask for help with a question even a knife novice probably knows the answer to. I’ve got about 35 years of experience with pocket knives but don’t recall ever getting the correct terminology for these celluloid scales. I’ve seen them referenced as waterfall but I don’t think that’s accurate. They are on a nice old Electric Cutlery Co. swell end jack. I had an identical NYKC to this one I wish now I had kept. Hopefully someone out there can help me out and give me the proper name for these beautiful celluloid scales. Thanks in advance.....
Re: Scales
Don't know for sure but is that color referred to as 'butter and molasses'? May someone will come along with more knowledge.
Re: Scales
Yeah that may be the colors but I asking about the pattern type. Butter and molasses scales were most common on old Camillus knives. Here is a photo of a Common butter and molasses
- whitebuffalo58
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Re: Scales
Although a name typically used for Remington knives, I've always called that type Pyremite. As in 'gold and brown swirl Pyremite'.
WB
WB
Re: Scales
Pyremite is about as close a name I could think of. I think Remington normally used that term on the green pyremite. But green and brown swirl Pyremite sounds good to me.
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Re: Scales
I'm pretty sure Remington had lots of different colored Pyremite's, although personally I've only seen a handful.
Great old Electric Cut. Co., BTW!
WB
Great old Electric Cut. Co., BTW!
WB
Re: Scales
I was thinking Pyremite too. It does not look exactly like any other Pyremite that I have seen, though. Here is another example of Pyremite.
And I agree that is a very nice old knife!
And I agree that is a very nice old knife!
Mel
Re: Scales
Some of those old companies like Electric Cut Co and NYK and even the older Camillus knives have some really interesting celluloid patterns in them. It seems like the celluloid before 1920 had more depth and more vibrancy than most of the celluloid made later, IMO.
Dale
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- Mumbleypeg
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Re: Scales
Some of the Remington gurus can correct me if wrong but I'm with WB. To my knowledge Remington called all their "celluloid" colors Pyremite, as in "green Pyremite, "red Pyremite" and so on. Also believe the term "Pyremite" was a Remington trade name. I've never seen it used in any other maker's catalog that I recall.
When I saw the OP knife (a very nice one) my first thought was "waterfall", so I'll be interested to learn if that is definitively incorrect.
Ken
When I saw the OP knife (a very nice one) my first thought was "waterfall", so I'll be interested to learn if that is definitively incorrect.
Ken
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- whitebuffalo58
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Re: Scales
True waterfall celluloid is, generally speaking, in a class by itself. Pretty much always about the color of French ivory but with a pattern that shifts with the light. (remember the old miniature toy tv's that had a picture of say...a man holding an axe over his head. As you move the screen, the man swings the axe and it comes down and splits a log? There were hundreds of different themes, usually cartoons) Anyway, waterfall celluloid has that sort of effect. By my own accounts, it was the most unstable celluloid ever made and you won't find many older knives with the waterfall handles still intact.Mumbleypeg wrote: my first thought was "waterfall"
About 3-4 years ago, I bought a 7" x 9" sheet of old stock waterfall celluloid. I immediately used it to rehandle a knife and it had started off-gassing within the week. So, I put the rest of the sheet up on a wire rack shelf out in the shop, hopefully to stabilize. Within a month it had delaminated, formed a large bubble in the center, the bubble split open and a nasty oily film had formed over the entire sheet. And to top it all off, it ate the chrome of the wire shelf. DUH!! I don't know what kept it stable for all those years, but it was obvious that I had changed it's environment and it didn't respond well.
WB
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Re: Scales
Do the handles on O.P. knife refract light differently when orientation to light is changed ? If so then i think it is a Waterfall cell.
kj
kj
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Re: Scales
As I know it, this is an example of classic waterfall celluloid.(pic taken from knifecenter.com) Basically monotoned.
I've seen some refer to this as waterfall celluloid, but I believe the proper term is actually french ivory.(straight lines)
JMHO, but any use of the term 'waterfall celluloid' concerning other materials is generic.
WB
I've seen some refer to this as waterfall celluloid, but I believe the proper term is actually french ivory.(straight lines)
JMHO, but any use of the term 'waterfall celluloid' concerning other materials is generic.
WB
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Re: Scales
Interesting discussion! As was stated before true waterfall celluloid is essentially a monochrome yellowish color with a series of wavy lines that run through it and when moved to a slightly different angle seem to wave much like the movement of water. Other types of celluloid have multiple colors and also exhibit this movement to a lesser or greater extent.
I have included a couple of examples of this.It is a bit difficult to capture on film but for what it's worth here they are.
The first example is a 3 line Camillus in a rather rare coffin handle pattern with multi-colored handles that do have a modicum of movement when viewed at different angles.
Next is a very old Imperial 2 blade jack with black and silver handles similar to the Camillus.
Third is a Fairmount Cutlery Co. 2 blade jack with what appear to be rows of squares that move as the handles are viewed at different angles.
Next is a New York Knife Co. jack with "true"waterfall handles.
Last is an unmarked jack with handles similar to the Camillus.
As an aside all celluloid handles have some degree of,"movement";otherwise there would be no discernment of depth in the handles.Sort of like those puzzles that seem to move even though they are not.
I have included a couple of examples of this.It is a bit difficult to capture on film but for what it's worth here they are.
The first example is a 3 line Camillus in a rather rare coffin handle pattern with multi-colored handles that do have a modicum of movement when viewed at different angles.
Next is a very old Imperial 2 blade jack with black and silver handles similar to the Camillus.
Third is a Fairmount Cutlery Co. 2 blade jack with what appear to be rows of squares that move as the handles are viewed at different angles.
Next is a New York Knife Co. jack with "true"waterfall handles.
Last is an unmarked jack with handles similar to the Camillus.
As an aside all celluloid handles have some degree of,"movement";otherwise there would be no discernment of depth in the handles.Sort of like those puzzles that seem to move even though they are not.
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Re: Scales
It is a good thing that you did not immediately rehandle a half dozen knives! Sometimes I think that celluloid was created to torture knife lovers. Because it can be stable for decades but you can never know when it will goo, it is like water torture.whitebuffalo58 wrote: About 3-4 years ago, I bought a 7" x 9" sheet of old stock waterfall celluloid. I immediately used it to rehandle a knife and it had started off-gassing within the week. So, I put the rest of the sheet up on a wire rack shelf out in the shop, hopefully to stabilize. Within a month it had delaminated, formed a large bubble in the center, the bubble split open and a nasty oily film had formed over the entire sheet. And to top it all off, it ate the chrome of the wire shelf. DUH!! I don't know what kept it stable for all those years, but it was obvious that I had changed it's environment and it didn't respond well.
WB
K7K - thanks for the fine examples!
Mel
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Re: Scales
Looked through my celluloid pile and couldn't find anything like the OP knife. Closest was probably this old Rather & Co. gunstock whittler. But it's not the same.
Ken
Ken
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- whitebuffalo58
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Re: Scales
Yah, I probably wouldn't have messed with the stuff if it hadn't been for a customer wanting his grandads knife restored as close to original as possible. He ended up settling for some old school French ivory that I'd had around for quite awhile. As far as I know it's held up fine. He hasn't said any differently anyway.Dinadan wrote:It is a good thing that you did not immediately rehandle a half dozen knives!
Agree with the above, some fine old celluloids/knives being shown. Celluloid may be hazardous, but some can be quite striking. I just use the "hope for the best, pray for the rest" approach.
WB
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Re: Scales
I believe that one's Pyraline. If memory serves me, Western called that particular one Gold Shell Pyraline, not sure what other companies called it.
I have this one stamped Lincoln Novelty Co. and have another similar knife stamped Imperial. I think I've seen it used on a few Camillus brands over the years, too.
I have little knowledge of the chemical aspects of any of these plastics, but did spend a fair amount of time researching them a few years ago. Mostly going by memory now, so I could be wrong.
WB
I have this one stamped Lincoln Novelty Co. and have another similar knife stamped Imperial. I think I've seen it used on a few Camillus brands over the years, too.
I have little knowledge of the chemical aspects of any of these plastics, but did spend a fair amount of time researching them a few years ago. Mostly going by memory now, so I could be wrong.
WB
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Re: Scales
During the Tested era Case had a similar material, which they called imitation onyx (handle material number "B", also sometimes "9").
Ken
Ken
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Re: Scales
This is pure speculation on my part but there is a possibility that by cutting into the sheet(thereby disturbing the outer layer and exposing the inner part to the atmosphere)that may have triggered the reaction.whitebuffalo58 wrote:
About 3-4 years ago, I bought a 7" x 9" sheet of old stock waterfall celluloid. I immediately used it to rehandle a knife and it had started off-gassing within the week. So, I put the rest of the sheet up on a wire rack shelf out in the shop, hopefully to stabilize. Within a month it had delaminated, formed a large bubble in the center, the bubble split open and a nasty oily film had formed over the entire sheet. And to top it all off, it ate the chrome of the wire shelf. DUH!! I don't know what kept it stable for all those years, but it was obvious that I had changed it's environment and it didn't respond well.
WB
It is similar to painting with the old alklyd enamels. They take a long time to dry and the process usually starts from the outside forming a hard skin over the material and not fully curing on the inside. After a period of time many people would sand the surface and attempt to polish the exposed area only to find that it was still soft and sticky and would lose gloss quickly.What was occurring was the solvents that hadn't escaped the initial drying were now working their way out and causing this problem. There is no cure for that other than removing the paint completely and refinishing.
Lacquers didn't have this problem as the solvents evaporated very quickly and there was almost no solvent retention in the paint. When the surface started to de-gloss they could be sanded and polished with no ill effects.
From what you are saying it sounds like the atmosphere re-ignited the drying process(e.g.:the escape of solvents)which caused the bubble to form and the de-lamination to occur. The oily film you speak of I have noticed on out-gassing celluloid and is likely a component of the makeup of the material.
In my years of having celluloid knives deteriorate on me I have observed that several things will cause the process to proceed. One is heat which can be caused by exposure to direct sunlight. Another is petroleum based products used to lubricate the pivots of the knife. Almost always too much is applied allowing a runoff under the handles.Several of the knives I have had this happen to the celluloid deteriorated from UNDER the handle rather than the surface.Isolating the knife by storing them in an airtight bag doesn't seem to affect the process to any degree and that is likely due to the fact that any nitrated substance possesses it's own oxygen atom so you aren't eliminating the atmosphere at all. This is why rocket propellants(which are largely nitrates)are used because they will burn without an atmosphere.
What is still puzzling to me is that many of the ones I see that have started only one handle is affected.It will completely deteriorate and the other side is like new. Wish I could figure that one out!
Anyway that is my take on it for whatever it is worth.
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Re: Scales
knife7knut wrote:This is pure speculation on my part but there is a possibility that by cutting into the sheet(thereby disturbing the outer layer and exposing the inner part to the atmosphere)that may have triggered the reaction.whitebuffalo58 wrote:
About 3-4 years ago, I bought a 7" x 9" sheet of old stock waterfall celluloid. I immediately used it to rehandle a knife and it had started off-gassing within the week. So, I put the rest of the sheet up on a wire rack shelf out in the shop, hopefully to stabilize. Within a month it had delaminated, formed a large bubble in the center, the bubble split open and a nasty oily film had formed over the entire sheet. And to top it all off, it ate the chrome of the wire shelf. DUH!! I don't know what kept it stable for all those years, but it was obvious that I had changed it's environment and it didn't respond well.
WB
It is similar to painting with the old alklyd enamels. They take a long time to dry and the process usually starts from the outside forming a hard skin over the material and not fully curing on the inside. After a period of time many people would sand the surface and attempt to polish the exposed area only to find that it was still soft and sticky and would lose gloss quickly.What was occurring was the solvents that hadn't escaped the initial drying were now working their way out and causing this problem. There is no cure for that other than removing the paint completely and refinishing.
Lacquers didn't have this problem as the solvents evaporated very quickly and there was almost no solvent retention in the paint. When the surface started to de-gloss they could be sanded and polished with no ill effects. EDIT: Lacquers are also nitrate based(essentially the same material used to make celluloid:cellulose nitrate).
From what you are saying it sounds like the atmosphere re-ignited the drying process(e.g.:the escape of solvents)which caused the bubble to form and the de-lamination to occur. The oily film you speak of I have noticed on out-gassing celluloid and is likely a component of the makeup of the material.
In my years of having celluloid knives deteriorate on me I have observed that several things will cause the process to proceed. One is heat which can be caused by exposure to direct sunlight. Another is petroleum based products used to lubricate the pivots of the knife. Almost always too much is applied allowing a runoff under the handles.Several of the knives I have had this happen to the celluloid deteriorated from UNDER the handle rather than the surface.Isolating the knife by storing them in an airtight bag doesn't seem to affect the process to any degree and that is likely due to the fact that any nitrated substance possesses it's own oxygen atom so you aren't eliminating the atmosphere at all. This is why rocket propellants(which are largely nitrates)are used because they will burn without an atmosphere.
What is still puzzling to me is that many of the ones I see that have started only one handle is affected.It will completely deteriorate and the other side is like new. Wish I could figure that one out!
Anyway that is my take on it for whatever it is worth.
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Re: Scales
I believe this old Union Cut Co. equal-ender is a waterfall cell knife, although it has has (mostly) straight lines. The "waterfall" effect is more pronounced on the pile side though you can see it on both sides if the light is right.
Tony
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- whitebuffalo58
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Re: Scales
I hadn't thought of that, but I bet you're right. I had cut a 1" strip along the 9" length, exposing the interior. It would have been further enhanced when I worked the slabs down to the knife. They went south very quickly.knife7knut wrote:This is pure speculation on my part but there is a possibility that by cutting into the sheet(thereby disturbing the outer layer and exposing the inner part to the atmosphere)that may have triggered the reaction.
I think you may have solved it!
I use a lot of oil based finishes and know what you mean. There's 'flash' time and there's 'cure' time. Just because it's dry to the touch, does not mean it's fully cured. It can take urethane's up to 3 or 4 months to cure to the point of doing a final hand rubbed finish. Depending on temps and humidity.
Tsar Bomba, I believe you're right, looks like it's holding up pretty well, too. Interesting build with the crimped edge handles. I'm pretty sure at one time, Imperial (or maybe Utica?) held a patent on something very similar.
WB
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Re: Scales
I've had instances where a customer re-finished a car with urethanes and set the car outside with an ambient temperature of about 40 degrees F and the paint never cured. I went to re-stripe it and my fingers laying against the surface left marks. Wound up stripping and refinishing. I've been working with paint of various types for most of my life and learn something new every day.whitebuffalo58 wrote:I hadn't thought of that, but I bet you're right. I had cut a 1" strip along the 9" length, exposing the interior. It would have been further enhanced when I worked the slabs down to the knife. They went south very quickly.knife7knut wrote:This is pure speculation on my part but there is a possibility that by cutting into the sheet(thereby disturbing the outer layer and exposing the inner part to the atmosphere)that may have triggered the reaction.
I think you may have solved it!
I use a lot of oil based finishes and know what you mean. There's 'flash' time and there's 'cure' time. Just because it's dry to the touch, does not mean it's fully cured. It can take urethane's up to 3 or 4 months to cure to the point of doing a final hand rubbed finish. Depending on temps and humidity.
Tsar Bomba, I believe you're right, looks like it's holding up pretty well, too. Interesting build with the crimped edge handles. I'm pretty sure at one time, Imperial (or maybe Utica?) held a patent on something very similar.
WB
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- whitebuffalo58
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Re: Scales
LOL! Yah, 40 degrees doesn't work.
Reminds me of the first winter after I started this business. We had a large order due by Christmas and we were finishing it with an oil based alkyd enamel. When I put the primer on it was 70 degrees, no problem. Two days later, a half hour into spraying the colored topcoat, one of those rogue arctic fronts came slammin' down out of the northwest. The temp dropped from 70 to 10F in less then an hour, along with a 20-30 mile an hour wind. We couldn't have an open flame in the paint shed, so we used an outside wood stove and piped the heat in. Should've worked great, but that ol' building was poorly insulated and I bet we used 2 cord o' wood over the next couple of days trying to keep the temp 55-70 degrees. We made drastic improvements the next spring!!
WB
Reminds me of the first winter after I started this business. We had a large order due by Christmas and we were finishing it with an oil based alkyd enamel. When I put the primer on it was 70 degrees, no problem. Two days later, a half hour into spraying the colored topcoat, one of those rogue arctic fronts came slammin' down out of the northwest. The temp dropped from 70 to 10F in less then an hour, along with a 20-30 mile an hour wind. We couldn't have an open flame in the paint shed, so we used an outside wood stove and piped the heat in. Should've worked great, but that ol' building was poorly insulated and I bet we used 2 cord o' wood over the next couple of days trying to keep the temp 55-70 degrees. We made drastic improvements the next spring!!
WB