Self-examination of an Accumulator...

[TwoFlowersLuggage]

I've been doing some self-examination of my knife buying habits and I think I need to make some changes. So, I'm hoping a public airing of those habits might help me to make the changes.

When I really examine my habits, I see something that shocked me - I seem to have quickly fallen into bidding on ANY knife on ebay that meets the following criteria:

1. Traditional folding pocket knife
2. Made in the USA
3. Unbroken blades and unbroken handles
4. No obvious corrosion damage - patina and some light spotting is OK
5. Not a shell handle construction
6. Sharpened blades OK, but not so worn as to drastically change the blade profile
7. Under $25-30 including shipping

This is my recipe - and when I really think about it, it is a recipe for accumulating a horde of low-end knives. I'm not always bidding between $25-30, I will bid lower if I don't think the knife is worth it - but I *will* bid. The only reason I'm NOT buying a knife is because it ultimately goes above my bid, which does happen a lot of the time.

Am I having fun? Yes.

Can I afford to continue doing this? Yes.

Am I building a collection I will be proud to own? No, I don't think so. I looked at the pictures of a single collection of over 600 Remingtons that were recently posted and I thought to myself "Wow, now *that* is a collection, not just an accumulation."

I know the obvious answer will be to sell what I have and buy what I want. And, I should then only buy knives that I know will add to my collection - but this is just not how my brain is wired!

So - if you made it this far, what do you think - can I change my stripes? Will I eventually grow tired of buying low-end knives? Or, am I always destined to buy not out of a desire to build a great collection, but rather out of boredom & convenience? Should I just stop being a whiny biatch complaining about my first-world problems?

[Berryb]

your criteria are pretty similar to mine, the difference is I stay off the internet. I've never bought a knife on line, but the other things I have bought have never made me very happy. I get more of a charge out of a discovery at a yard sale or flea market. I cant explain it, maybe I'm just weird.
Bruce

[RobesonsRme.com]

I am not now, nor was I ever wealthy. I worked a salaried job that occupied, at times, 70 or more hours a week.

When I started really collecting knives in 1988, a fellow collector admonished me to always buy the best possible knife I could afford. He said, you will never pay too much for a mint knife, but you will buy some too early.

And a narrow focus is a must. One simply cannot buy everything they find attractive.

Ebay is the largest, most diverse Knife Show on earth and like a knife show, most cannot walk through and buy something at every table.

Don't know if those rules will work for everybody, but they are the ones I followed in accumulating my Robeson/Terrier collection.

I fully understand that well-to-do professional people can buy with some degree of impunity, but most of us are not in that category.

Charlie Noyes

[deo-pa]

As Charlie says, always buy the best you can afford is sound advice for any collectible. That said, there is nothing inherently bad about accumulating many lower end knives if that is where you find the most pleasure.

When I got the bug I bought a lot of knives like the ones you described, but over time my knowledge has increased and my tastes have become more refined. I am in the process of whittling down my collection to 100 high quality minty knives. When I get there my plan is that if I buy a new knife then I sell and existing one so the collection remains at 100 +/-.

I'm also documenting each knife so that my children, who have no interest, can copy my descriptions and photos and easily sell my knives after I'm gone.

I think you should be applauded TwoFlowers for your self-examination. Most of us would probably benefit if we reflected now and then on what we buy and why we buy it. These hunks of bone and metal can be so damn addictive it is easy to buy, buy, buy without asking why.

Finally, your comment about "first-world problems" is right on the money. Perhaps 3 billion people would love to have pocket knife woes as their biggest problem.

Dennis

[philco]

Charlie Noyes has had the finest knife collection I have personally ever had the privilege to view. When I pondered what made it so special the one word that came to mind was FOCUS. He stayed focused on the Robeson brand and the Terrier sub brand. As a result he put together an award winning collection that was most likely the best in the world of what is was. You can't do that by skipping around from brand to brand just because something catches your eye. You've got to stay FOCUSED. Charle did so and he put together a fantastic collection. I'm attempting to do the same with my Canal Street collection, but it's not easy because I see so many other knives I'm drawn to. That makes me appreciate what Charlie has done all the more.

[jerryd6818]

Wait just a cotton pickin' minute. What is your definition of a "low end knife"? Are you calling it "low end" just because it doesn't cost an arm and a leg or because it's not 80 or 100 years old or maybe because it's not a prestigious brand like Case, Schrade, GEC or Phil's Canal Street or Charlie's Robeson's?

As everyone that's been here more than ten minutes knows, I collect Camillus 72 knives and their clones (my definition of clone is the same pattern, tang stamped other than Camillus because in my opinion, Camillus was the original Carpenter's and Whittler's knife). Right off the top of my head, I can't think of any in the collection I've paid more than $60 for and the majority were under $30. Yes I have some scarce ones that are in factory condition but several of those were given to me by Tommy (Carmillus). Am I barred from calling my pile of 72's a collection because they're "low end" knives?

I also have a few "collections" that were low cost beauties. I have all the Miracle Whip knife releases and have not paid more than $30 for any of them (a couple under $5). Another collection is the Puma Big Five stockman series. Six knives, all in factory condition and only one cost me more than $60. All 8 colors of the Kershaw DWO 3000 knives. A few English Jacks that I consider a collection and some Medium Jacks I call a collection.

Phil is echoing what I've said for a small forever. "I'm an accumulator because collectors have focus". I don't consider any pile of knives less of a collection because it's shell knives or inexpensive knives or even Chinese Rough Riders. It's my opinion that as long as the pile has focus, it doesn't deserve elitists descriptions like "low end".

Even though I have a few what I consider collections, I still consider myself an accumulator because the vast majority of my pile has no focus. "Low end" has no place in this discussion. I agree with Phil. It's focus that makes a collection and/or you a collector.

[eveled]

Buy what makes you happy. Others spend money on things that make them happy that are consumable or experience related. In the end they have nothing to show for it.

One thing to note though. Do your purchases make you happy years later when you look at them? Or does the happiness only come from the buying?

A collection has to have a start point obviously, but most also have an end. If there isn't a way to have a complete collection. It is just an accumulation.

I'm down to 18 specific knives I need to complete my collection. 15 of them I'm waiting for Buck to make specific knives with specific handles. They may or may not ever make.

The other 3 are common I can buy any time just haven't yet, once I buy them my collections are complete. Until Buck makes one I don't have, or I start a new collection.

[glennbad]

I used to buy up anything and everything, as long as the price was decent. In reviewing that pile, there's a lot of what I consider "junk" in there. But I guess you get some duds in with the diamonds. I'm not any unhappier in looking back at my collecting habits, because I got to look at a LOT of knives, so that is good research, and let's be honest, there's a lot of knives there to enjoy for the buck.

As to my more recent collecting directive, I have drastically scaled back my random-value knife buying for more focused buying. Still random, I guess, but I'm a little more selective. Whittler patterns and low-end customs presently are what I have been enjoying, along with forum knives and some GEC's. I still save my money up for the local knife shows, and tend to buy older knives when there.

[QTCut5]

I started out buying anything and everything that caught my eye for whatever reason. Then, I became fascinated by certain specific characteristics such as different locking mechanisms or opening methods or blade profiles, etc., and began focusing on collecting only knives that fit into those categories. Eventually my interests narrowed down a bit more and I found myself drawn to certain specific patterns, and then it became certain patterns with certain handle materials followed by certain patterns with certain handle materials and one particular blade profile...and, Voila! suddenly I had become a "collector" because my accumulation now had a focus or set of parameters that determined which new knives I would even consider purchasing. It was a gradual process going from accumulator to collector, but I've gotten to experience a wide variety of knives of all types from low-end junk to high-end customs and it's been an awful lot of fun. My only regret is when I look at photos of some of the knives I have sold off as my tastes and collecting focus has changed over the years, sometimes I wish I had held onto more of them--there was a reason I bought them in the first place and looking at the old photos will often reawaken that old attraction.

And, BTW, the price of a knife has NEVER been a factor for me in deciding whether or not to purchase a knife. Sure, I like getting a good bargain as much as the next guy, and there are top dollar limits to how much I can realistically afford; but, more often than not, when I see a knife that speaks to me, I will do whatever it takes to get it, even if it means going into debt for awhile until I can pay it off (which I have done several times but generally would not recommend to others).

~Q~

[knife7knut]

Some VERY interesting responses to a somewhat amusing thought. I guess this,"accumulator" should chime in with my twopence.
In my 60 plus years of "amassing"(maybe I should be called an,"amassole")knives and other sharp tools I would like to think I have always been focused.The only problem is I would continually change my focus;whether it be knife styles;handle materials or whatever.
I think my downfall was when I discovered E-Bay. Before that I had been content to peruse antique shops and flea markets and trade with several friends of mine who were also addicted. My first E-Bay purchase strangely enough was NOT a knife but rather a salesman's case from Shapleigh Hardware. After that it was all downhill.
I would spend hours scanning the various sections of E-Bay that yielded knives and I must admit I did find some great deals(steals).Surprisingly enough in nearly 700 purchases I have only had two instances of problems and both of those were resolved;one by the USPS going after a dealer for mail fraud and the other was due to people receiving my payment but not recording it.
When I first started buying I had an arbitrary limit of $20 for any purchase but had to revise that when I got outbid on an 1850's era bowie that was listed as a letter opener and won for $25! I also would never bid on any item if I couldn't buy it with a postal money order or it was more than I was willing to spend.Missed a lot for that reason.
So now I sit here with a lot of somewhat valuable knives and razors;many not so valuable knives that I still like and would buy again;and not so many really valuable knives that I have catalogued and will likely pass down to my son and grandson.
Should I whittle down the size of my accumulation? Maybe but to what end? It might make my wife's life easier should I pass before her and she tasked with getting rid of it all. I have made plans in the event that should occur.
For what it's worth I haven't purchased a knife in nearly two months but that is only due to being held prisoner in my home due to health reasons.

[RCMsocal]

Good wisdom above. I will try to incorporate it into my thinking. I'm new to knives and the online stores are like being the proverbial "kid in the candy store." Been buying w/o much focus beyond a preference for single banded traditionals--maybe because the knife that started me down this road is a Camillus Grand Daddy Barlow. Thanks again for the thoughts.

[gypsy jim]

Very interesting responses. I will only add, no matter what you collect, buy what you like. Buy the best example you can buy. Never be afraid to pay up for quality.

[TwoFlowersLuggage]

A big thank you to everyone that read my diatribe and an even bigger thank you to those that responded!

Jerry - I suspect that if you look at my list of criteria for bidding on a knife, your own criteria would include some additional requirements that I do not have, and it is those additional requirements that separate what I'm calling a low-end knife from what you are buying. And NO, it is not based only on price, or on rarity or on brand.

So, let's consider an example: I see an ebay listing for a Case 6233 pen knife in brown jigged Delrin from 2004. It's clearly nowhere near mint, the blades are scuffed, it has been sharpened (badly) and the bolsters & handles have typical pocket wear. It looks like every other 14 year old knife that has sat in someone's pocket for most of those 14 years. Current bid is $12 and the shipping charges are $4.00.

Do you bid on it?

I would. It passes the criteria I listed in my OP. I would probably throw a snipe bid in at ~$18-20 and hope I can steal it for less. So, my maximum exposure is a total of $22-24. A brand new brown 6233 from SHC, including shipping is $39. That's one example of what I am calling a "low-end knife". I already have two 6233 pens in brown jigged Delrin that are about the same condition. So, why would I bid on it? Well, because maybe I can get it for a good price, or maybe it will be slightly better than the two I already have, or maybe the two I have are an older one and a newer one, or maybe some day I could sell it, or maybe I'm just bored and haven't won any other auctions today...

I'm not sure how else to explain what I mean by a "low-end knife". I think a more rational move for a collector would be to purchase a brand new 6233 for $39 and place it in the case alongside other variations of pen knives, or other patterns of brown jigged Delrin, or whatever the focus of that particular collection might be. I guess I'm just doubting that the focus of a collection I'm going to be proud of is going to include 3 brown jigged Delrin 6233 pens in good to very good condition, you know what I mean?

[Jody744]

I have become so particular in my selection, I can't afford or find for sale the few knives I want. Ebay took up too much of my time, I lurk my old searches when I have insomnia. The only exceptions are the really good deals at uninformed pawn shops/antique malls/estate-yard sales. In @ 30 years of looking, I have struck gold twice. Do what you like. Charlies collection is incredible, though!

[Dinadan]

A lot depends on what a man likes. My small collection would be more valuable if I had bought just a few top end knives at top dollar. But I like old knives that are not junk but have the wear of use and carry. I can drop them in my pocket without concern that I might get a scratch or ding, and I can buy three or four or six for what a NOS would cost. If I were collecting as an investment I would only buy pristine knives, but I do not spend enough for the investment value to matter. My knife money is like my beer money - just for fun.

After the first year I decided to stick to one pattern and that has made it a lot easier to just ignore all the cool knives that I like the looks of but are not my pattern.

[Lansky1]

Great post TwoFlowers ... your accumulator preferences are almost exactly the same as mine - it's a good time to be a knife bottom feeder on eBay. The only modifications I would make to your list for me is ...

- It's gotta be Case
- Used is fine, but it's gotta be close to minty or at least not abused, where I know I can bring it back with some work.
- No run of the mill/common amber, red, brown or black sides - I like interesting color or texture (deep canyon series for example)
- Unless I am forced to proceed into stupid mode (when I absolutely have to have an unusual knife), I never bid more than $50 (including shipping) - truth be told, I usually quit at the low $40's. When I do engage stupid mode, I'll bid an obscene amount on the knife in the last seconds to ensure I get it & I've only had to enact stupid mode 4x in my eBay career, and fortunately, nobody has called my bluff & I didn't have to pay close to what I bid.
- Blades have to have at least average to above average snap, no wobble.
- I never buy from dealers that charge full retail and let them sit forever on eBay with a buy it now price - I always target guys that actually want to sell their knives, and start them at reasonable prices, knowing the market will drive the selling price.
- I avoid the $7.20 USPS small box shipping guys on principle unless I have to engage stupid mode & have to have a knife - it just annoys me when I know I can ship that same knife for $3.05 USPS First Class and I am forced to pay for the sellers convenience.

My accumulating is nearing critical mass ... it's hard enough to keep all of them sharp & I'm getting to the point where I sell a lesser knife or two to finance one I really REALLY want. I find I'm also becoming more focused as many others have said seems to happen to us all over time. I've had most everything Case makes and over the course of a few years, I've narrowed it down to maybe a half dozen patterns i really like and have sold all the others to finance those ...

PS - I gotta ask ... your avatar is interesting - can you explain to us a bit about that picture ... thx.

[ken98k]

Here's how it works for me. I looked for a couple years for a particular Western trapper, then a couple weeks ago, success!
A week later I find a locking version, then this week, another linerlock NIB w/sheath!

[TwoFlowersLuggage]

PS - I gotta ask ... your avatar is interesting - can you explain to us a bit about that picture ... thx.

Sure, it goes along with my screen name and the quote I have in the signature line. I am a huge reader of speculative & science fiction, and I have been reading this stuff for almost 50 years. One of my favorite authors is Terry Pratchett, who wrote a series of very wacky books known as "Discworld". The first book in that series is The Colour of Magic. Discworld is a fantasy land where magic exists.

One of the primary characters in this book is named "Twoflower". Twoflower is a naive tourist visiting the capital city of Ankh-Morpork, where the concept of a "tourist" is completely unknown. With Twoflower is "The Luggage", which is a large chest made of magical wood that essentially makes the chest come to life. The Luggage has hundreds of little legs and very sharp teeth. It follows behind Twoflower as he travels around Ankh-Morpork. The Luggage is also quite vicious and acts as a bodyguard to its owner. There is a line in the book that describes The Luggage as "part suitcase, part homicidal maniac".

Does that help? It really shouldn't...

I've been online a loooong time. I've used many different screen names and avatars. Some of them are just private jokes that I really don't expect anyone else to understand. At the end of the day, I'm just a nerdy computer geek that laughs at my own jokes, even when I'm the only one laughing...

[gsmith7158]

TFL when I first started collecting your methodology and mine were pretty close. I began to wonder at one point though was I really a knife collector or was the draw the thrill of winning the eBay auction as I had amassed a very large pile of knives and was beginning to run out of room for them. As i assessed my collection i realized there was really no theme or direction there just a lot of knives, mostly modern that I had outbid other people for. I decided I needed a goal or a certain theme to follow. Well I decided on 3 older brands and thought I would finance the new direction by selling some of the ones I had. It soon became apparent why I had won all those auctions. I lost money on every knife I sold in that first round. That was one of many lessons I've learned since I started collecting. I have fewer knives now but I have many very special knives and find it is much easier to handle my collection. I think that focus is the key in collecting. Just my opinion.

[QTCut5]

I gotta agree with Greg. Although, in my case, I started out buying knives directly from dealers but then discovered I could often get the exact same knives on eBay for much less. Pretty soon, however, the winning became more important than the actual knives I was bidding on (a basic human psychology that I'm sure is a very intentional aspect of eBay's design) and I found myself with a pile of knives in a vast array of seemingly random styles and patterns...a massive accumulation with no real focus. So, I decided to "organize" my pile according to specific qualities and characteristics. It was through the act of organizing that I discovered exactly what was really most important to me...the knives that really excited me as opposed to just another nice knife. Once I had a established a few basic parameters, I sold off the knives that didn't qualify and focused on acquiring only knives that fit within my specific collecting guidelines. That was when collecting became really fun because instead of simply amassing more and more knives, most of which I would rarely (or never) even look at again, now it became a "hunt" for specific knives and each new acquisition brought a much greater thrill and sense of accomplishment. Also, my collection became much more interesting because it had sense and order--it felt more satisfying to look at an organized group of knives related by themes instead of just a huge jumble of random knives.

True collecting is a direct contradiction of the second law of thermodynamics: the Law of Increasing Entropy, and a small way for a man to exercise a measure of control over the Universe and the laws of Nature. Some people like to garden as a way to control Nature and bring a degree of organization to an otherwise seemingly disorganized plot of land, I prefer to collect knives. Some gardens are highly organized and meticulously manicured and well-tended while others have a more organic, natural wild aspect. Some knife collections are more focused and have specific parameters while others are more random and are commonly referred to as "accumulations." But, the satisfaction derived from either approach is probably fundamentally the same.

Just the idle thoughts of an idle fellow pondering the meaning of life, the Universe and everything while sitting seaside on a Saturday morning at sunrise.

~Q~

[gsmith7158]

Aw Q. You just had to throw that in there about sitting seaside at sunrise didn't you.? Now I'm really jealous

[bestgear]

I find this thread interesting from the perspective of raw personal exposure which is often hard (especially for men) to achieve. The admission of reckless buying and bad returns on investments to me is overshadowed by some pretty specific criteria for accumulating/collecting. I think each of us has experienced a "cycle" beginning with why we were drawn to knives, why we decided to own more than a handful of knives, when we determined that things might be out-of-control and when we decided to focus our collections. That cycle was probably driven my economic circumstances, family obligations, work responsibilities and spousal pressure. When those circumstances changed, I speculate that so did our accumulating/collecting habits.

My own "cycle" for you to ponder:

Age 7 - Received my first knife from my dad, purchased at Amato's Hobby Shop in New Britain Connecticut, an Official Camillus Cub Scout knife

Age 9 - My maternal grandfather gives me a cigar box filled with Landers, Frary and Clark knives he received as payment for some automotive work he did - I am taken to collecting knives made in New Britain Connecticut

Age 11 - I join the Boy Scouts and purchase my own Western sheath knife, Plumb hatchet and Ulster folding knife

Age 17 - I become an Eagle Scout and my father gives me his Remington Scout knife that my paternal grandfather gave to him in 1940 - I realize that I'm an Official Scout knife collector

Age 22 - I move away from the family homestead where I was raised and upon doing so I realize that I have 2 full moving boxes of knives, one with Official Scout knives and one with knives made in New Britain Connecticut (mostly LF&C)

Age 37 - I get married and when we combine households, the majority of the boxes that I moved into my brides home were knives

Age 61 - We build a new home in Delaware and it took a Ford Transit filled to the rafters to move all of the knives, accoutrements, display cases, books, magazines etc. into our new home

Fortunately, we allocated a 150 sq. ft. space that will be the final resting place for my Official Scout knives and knives made in New Britain Connecticut. While my collection over the years has been focused, it has grown exponentially as the trappings of life have allowed it to. Thankfully I have a 23 year old son that is equally as passionate about knives as I am so the legacy will continue once I am called home.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

[TwoFlowersLuggage]

Just the idle thoughts of an idle fellow pondering the meaning of life, the Universe and everything while sitting seaside on a Saturday morning at sunrise.

I see what you did there...

Some of my favorite fiction is the sarcastic humorous science fiction of British authors like Terry Pratchett, Douglas Adams, Neil Gaiman, etc. Of course, I also love the many American classic SF authors such as Robert Heinlein, Issac Asimov, Philip K. Dick, etc, etc!

To everyone that has responded, I extend my heartfelt thanks. This entire exercise has helped tremendously to bring clarity to some of the random thoughts I had bouncing around in my brain. Will I actually make some changes to my buying habits? I think so, but that's much easier to say then it is to do. The proof will be whether you continue to see posts of my haphazard purchases in the "mail call" thread, or if my posts begin to take on a more organized and focused trend. Only time will tell...

[gwelker62]

True collecting is a direct contradiction of the second law of thermodynamics: the Law of Increasing Entropy,
~Q~

That's because there is another law of physics that science hasn't properly theorized yet. And that is informational dynamics. It is basically a purpose driven manipulation of the physical world enabled by knowledge of the physical world.

As you point out, left up to entropy, knives would eventually be equally distributed about the world. Given enough time, even their constituent parts. I'm an Old Timer and Uncle Henry collector, so I use what I know about those knives, the use of the interwebs, feebay and other sites like it, mail service, banking, etc etc... and manipulated a certain amount of those OT and UH knives to a single place and maintain that concentration.

[Lansky1]

PS - I gotta ask ... your avatar is interesting - can you explain to us a bit about that picture ... thx.

Sure, it goes along with my screen name and the quote I have in the signature line. I am a huge reader of speculative & science fiction, and I have been reading this stuff for almost 50 years. One of my favorite authors is Terry Pratchett, who wrote a series of very wacky books known as "Discworld". The first book in that series is The Colour of Magic. Discworld is a fantasy land where magic exists.

Sounds like a cool concept for a SciFi storyline ... thx.