Celluloid outgassing question...

[americanedgetech]

That is the entire point sir. It's a crap shoot. Some items appear stable while others don't make it and the reason is not yet determined.
What made some celluloid stable? Perhaps it was the dust in the air from the coal shipping depot down the street or perhaps it was the lime in the local water?

It is easy to de-construct celluloid in a lab to determine the exact composition BUT some of the "ingredients" are lost in the process because no one knows exactly what they are testing/looking for.

I'll try to find an article I read on Billiard balls from the 20's or 30's I believe...
The issue with them was the balls would Explode. Literally!
The material would begin the decomposition process in it's core. The resulting acid(s) vapor created pressure inside the ball, and an impact would fracture the ball enough to blow it apart. Not a flame style explosion but an acidic vapor burst.

Back then it was a big deal like the exploding Ford Pinto fuel tanks from the 70's. Billiards was a very popular pass time.

Edit:
This is not the article I read but it will suffice for the moment to show the point.
This is to Smithsonion.com... https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-ne ... 180962751/

[John Carter]

I wonder why bakelite, another plastic that was extremely popular early in the 20th.century, wasn't used on the manufacturing of knife scales? Maybe to brittle?

As far as i know bakelite doesn't have these same problems.

[americanedgetech]

Bakelite is extremely stable, and is still used widely today.
I think it is not so much that it is brittle as much as the fact that it is available in any color... as long as that color is black.

Maybe someone knows of some handle examples in Bakelite?

Edit: If you ever want an interesting read, Read about Leo Bakeland, and what happened with his family once the money started pouring in... You could not make up the tale. The Kardashians come to mind.

http://allthingsbakelite.com/diaries-jo ... baekeland/

[John Carter]

Bakelite is extremely stable, and is still used widely today.
I think it is not so much that it is brittle as much as the fact that it is available in any color... as long as that color is black.

Maybe someone knows of some handle examples on Bakelite?

Yep - color surly must have been a factor. Always black or brown.

[John Carter]

Question: what is the difference between celluloid and composite? How can you tell the difference between the two?

Of the three pictured-

1. the top Boker is celluloid, although in Stewart's Knife Guide there are examples pictured under composite that are very similar.

2. Unsure if this Imperial Hollow Ground serpentine is celluloid or composite.

3. The bottom Kutmaster- 75% confident is celluloid; especially as the covers appear slightly shrinking.

Any idea on 2 & 3?

[John Carter]

[americanedgetech]

Chemical composition is the difference...

Testing for celluloid is quite easy.
"How to Test for Celluloid"
Rubbing Method – Rub the piece between your finger and thumb until it's hot and then smell it. ...
Hot Water Method – Run hot water over your piece and smell it, if it smells like camphor then your piece is Celluloid.
Hot Needle Method – Heat a needle until it's hot and poke your item.
A Lesson in Celluloid | Oh, for the Love of Vintage!
https://theloveofvintage.wordpress.com/ ... celluloid/

Here is a good article on Bakelite, and how to recognize it...
http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/gale/

[John Carter]

Thanks fot the info and leads.

[RobesonsRme.com]

Dennis Ellingson wrote a very informative article in the OKCA Newsletter.

I think it is posted somewhere on AAPK.

Celluloid is a crapshoot. Some will deteriorate with or without a stimulus, others will last for a very, very long time.

A former director of The National Knife Museum treated outgassing knives with disassembly and coating ALL parts with Rust-O-Leum clear coat, then reassembly.

I suppose that's a reasonable preservation procedure for an outgassing, but otherwise very collectible knife, if one has the skills, but not practical as a preventive measure.

Robeson Cutlery Company used to coat the blades with some form of clear coat on knives that went on their display boards. You'll find one every so often with that coating starting to flake off in spots. Whatever it was, it is easily removed with fingernail polish remover.

Charlie Noyes

[orvet]

Here is the link to Dennis Ellingson's article on celluloid. It is posted on the Oregon Knife Collectors Association, (OKCA) website.
http://www.oregonknifeclub.org/celluloid_02.html

There was a later article published in Knife World a few years ago that builds on this article by Dennis.
If I can find a link to it I will post it as well.




Regarding Bakelite used as knife handles: it was used by some companies, though I can give you a list of names at the moment.
I believe there was one company that used Bakelite handles on their TL-29s.

[americanedgetech]

If you combine the OKCA article with this article that I posted in another thread... http://cool.conservation-us.org/jaic/ar ... 2-003.html

You have about an hour of reading, and combined they explain everything that a layman could ever need to know about celluloid decomposition.

[John Carter]

If you combine the OKCA article with this article that I posted in another thread... http://cool.conservation-us.org/jaic/ar ... 2-003.html

You have about an hour of reading, and combined they explain everything that a layman could ever need to know about celluloid decomposition.

If conservators are to be prepared to face the treatment, housing, and exhibition needs of plastics, they must begin research and experimentation now. For many celluloid objects it is already too late.

[John Carter]

If you combine the OKCA article with this article that I posted in another thread... http://cool.conservation-us.org/jaic/ar ... 2-003.html

You have about an hour of reading, and combined they explain everything that a layman could ever need to know about celluloid decomposition.

It could be months worth of reading...

https://www.abebooks.com/book-search/ti ... -plastics/

[americanedgetech]

If you combine the OKCA article with this article that I posted in another thread... http://cool.conservation-us.org/jaic/ar ... 2-003.html

You have about an hour of reading, and combined they explain everything that a layman could ever need to know about celluloid decomposition.

It could be months worth of reading...

https://www.abebooks.com/book-search/ti ... -plastics/

I think you missed the word "layman" JC.

[John Carter]

If you combine the OKCA article with this article that I posted in another thread... http://cool.conservation-us.org/jaic/ar ... 2-003.html

You have about an hour of reading, and combined they explain everything that a layman could ever need to know about celluloid decomposition.

It could be months worth of reading...

https://www.abebooks.com/book-search/ti ... -plastics/

I think you missed the word "layman" JC.

lol... it looks like a rabbit hole.

[americanedgetech]

I am also a member of a chemistry forum where we have discussed this to death. The closest topic to this one is "Which oil is best?"

So yeah... Rabbit hole is a very good analogy.

The one thing that everyone agrees on is there are too many variables to reach a consensus.
Another good analogy here is... Build two engines in the same facility, at the same time. Install these engines on a dyno and run them at the exact same rpm/power output, and they should last the exact same amount of time before failure. As we all know they never fail at or near the same time. After testing thousands of engines you will develop a range of failure rates but there will always be anomalies. Some will fail on the first start up, and others may out live the testing process.

Why is this? Variables in everything from the materials in the component parts to the air they take in.

[knife7knut]

Read this post with interest and the comments and suggestions that ensued. I have posted several times in the past on this subject and for those who haven't read them I offer the following:

One of the biggest factors(in my opinion)in celluloid degradation has to be temperature. I base this on my experience with a similar material that has a tendency to degrade:vinyl and specifically vinyl used in automotive applications.I first noticed this when I bought a new Mustang GT in 1982. I had stopped smoking the year before and I began to notice that a film would appear on the inside of the windshield about every two to three weeks during the summertime. It would clean off reasonably easy only to re-appear in a few weeks.As the car was black(interior was red)and the windows usually up the temperature inside the vehicle was considerable.
I finally deduced that the vinyl covering on the dashboard was out-gassing and causing the film on the windshield. Attempting to arrest it through the use of various chemical preservatives was to no avail. Eventually the outgassing slows and stops but by that time the vinyl has dried to the point that it becomes extremely brittle and cracking commences.
Another factor in the degradation of celluloid I believe is the introduction of petroleum based products on the surfaces.On picture handled knives this is a death knell for any pictures on the undersides.The petroleum causes the image to gradually turn black and then disappear completely.
One of the strangest scenarios with celluloid handled knives is where one side completely disintegrates but the other side is completely unaffected.I have had several knives on which this has occurred and I cannot explain why.One was an Aerial coke bottle folder;another was a Novelty Cutlery Co.letter opener knife(both were picture handles);another was a Robeson swing guard and another a Camillus trapper(yellow cel)while still another was a KA-BAR folding hunter and a Buck Creek swing guard(cracked ice).
The Buck Creek was particularly insidious as the blade was corroding but the handles weren't showing any outward signs of deterioration. One day after cleaning it I pushed down on the lock and the entire back of the knife broke off! The out-gassing had completely eaten through the brass liners causing them to fail. The handles STILL showed no signs of deterioration.
Another one I bought just because it was so deteriorated was a small STA-SHARP pen that had completely broken in half(backspring included)but the stainless blades showed absolutely no signs of damage.
I wish I had an answer to the mystery of their deterioration and how to combat it;I would likely be a very rich man. Here are some pics of the ones I have.

[knife7knut]

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[knife7knut]

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[americanedgetech]

I always love your posts Knife7.

The theory behind the Cell staying intact, and the steel deteriorating is simple. Wicking!
Once oxidation (rusting) begins (be it from a drop of water/humidity) the oxidized steel accelerates the wicking of the acid(s) from the celluloid. You will find the celluloid in contact with the oxidized steel has a micro dimpled texture created by localized shrinkage. This entire process that breaks a steel knife may be the wicking the acid(s) thru a thread sized channel that you may not even see with the naked eye or it may be the entire length of the material. Magnified examination will reveal the area(s) causing this action.

Another factor you mentioned is heat. That is 100% correct in that most chemical reactions are accelerated with heat, and completely arrested in the lack of heat. That is one of the laws of physics. Molecules move faster with increasing temperature. In fact that is what heat is. Accelerated molecules.

I believe that everyone has seen a steel component mounted to an un-sealed concrete floor rusting from the bottom up. Same action, wicking. The active oxidation accelerates the process.

[knife7knut]

Wicking may explain the deterioration experienced behind the handles but a different situation exists with blades corroding on the exposed surfaces and not on the hidden ones. There is no surface contact and yet the deterioration commences quite rapidly. This would tend to support an airborne migration of vapors given off by the degradation. And there is still the mystery of one side of a knife handle completely deteriorating while the other remains virtually unaffected(see the pictures of the Aerial coke bottle).
I wish I had taken pictures of the Robeson when it started out-gassing.The yellow handle on one side was perfect and the other side completely crystallized.I only have a pic of the good side.
The United Boker Christmas tree handled knife I thought I had checked the deterioration by cleaning and coating the undersides of the handles with a prismatic vinyl tape I had left over from a lettering job on a boat but after several weeks the deterioration had returned.I have since replaced the handles with some blue plexiglass.I still have the handles sitting next to my computer and they are still exuding something slippery.

[tongueriver]

One of the common scenes of cell degradation is a line of dark patina (or worse) along the spine of the blade, while the cell handles look pretty good. This is obviously air-borne oxidation of the knife steel, not wicking. I assume it is nitric acid fumes. I have also seen this in fixed blades wherein the oxidation was clearly air-borne.

[tongueriver]

The three categories of cell which I now (mostly) avoid are: cracked ice, yellow, and German. One of my favorites is absolutely (so far) stable and is 100 years old. Otherwise I have maybe 100 cell knives that I am not afraid of.

[americanedgetech]

You are both absolutely correct that airborne vapors are another yet completely different action. In those cases the vapor can not attack the steel it is actually touching so it is escaping, and attracted to the exposed steel.

That's what I mean by too many variables.
Perhaps Ted on the assembly line ate a slice of Vinny's famous olive pizza for lunch, and the oil(s) on his hands insulated the steel from the celluloid... Who knows?
If there were a direct answer, there would be no discussion, and without discussion a solution may never be found.

I have a pet experiment that I would like to attempt one day.
Immersing these handles in different bases such as sodium hydroxide, calcium carbonate, sodium carbonate, sodium bi-carb. ect, and to expedite the process of neutralizing the integral acids in the handles... running the experiment under vacuum.

It might take months to completely vacate the acids from the celluloid or it may take minutes. I do not know but I feel it is worth an attempt because such a process of stabilization could be quite lucrative.
On the other hand, vacating or neutralizing the acids just may degrade the material into something else like dust or goo.

When I have my shop finished, and all my knife stuff out there I will have my lab back so I can try some ideas out then.
I'm no genius but sometimes it is the outside the box guy, thinking differently that finds the answer.


Yellow cell ehhh TR?

[knife7knut]

What amazes me is the knife I posted above(easy open marked Elmer G Roberts Portsmouth N.H.)is close to a hundred years old and as nice as when it left the factory.