Celluloid outgassing question...

[John Carter]

LOL... I saw Breaking Bad, and figured THAT looked like fun.

Not!
I am actually working on developing a Graphine based epoxy for use with carbon fiber. I have a hydrofoil sport boat design (similar to the International Moth series of boats) that I am developing, and my main focus is to reduce the amount of carbon fiber cloth/epoxy used, and increase the strength while reducing weight, and cost.
I mess around with that, and I make my own dietary supplements like Ginko extract, green tea extract, my own aspirin from Willow bark, Lots of things...
Sort of like "Juicing" but to the billionth degree

Here's a 3-d rendering of one of the hulls... The idea is similar to a wind surfer on foils.

Well now I know who the resident scientist is.

I prefer blending with the Blendtec- retain that all important fiber. Not the carbon type though.

[americanedgetech]

Are those your vids?

I LOVE THEM! Those, and the microwave vids...
Sorry for sidetracking guys...

[John Carter]

Are those your vids?

I LOVE THEM! Those, and the microwave vids...
Sorry for sidetracking guys...

No- just the crazy Blendtec blender CEO. I have the blender. They actually take suggestions on their FB page for 'Will it Blend' requests. I was thinking of suggesting blending a pocket knife but I'm afraid the blade might blast through the plastic jar wall and impale him.

Sorry didn't mean to go off topic. Will stick to the subject at hand.

[colin.p]

Knifers are not the only ones that have/had to deal with the deterioration of celluloid. It is/was not uncommon to pull great-grampa's old Gibson, or other maker's, guitars out of the closet or from under the bed where they had been stored for years in their cases and find that the binding around the guitar or mandolin had been destroyed, along with the finish. The tuner buttons were not exempt from deterioration either. Martin Guitar used to make their pickguards out of celluloid and after attachment to the guitar, the tops were finished with, I think, nitrocellulose. The pickguards would shrink to the point that it would lift and pull and cause what is referred to as the "B string crack". It is very uncommon to find a pre-1980 Martin without the crack. Just my 2-cents on the subject.

Some interesting comments there. I reckon there are still a coupla Martin boxes out there that will still bring a smile to my face. 'specially from this old boy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_YB9SC7AV4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEkVkJax2Co

That's pretty awesome. That boy sure can play.

[wizrd]

It's a GREAT THREAD when Norman Blake shows up to do some picking....just saying.

[americanedgetech]

You can always tell when a thread has pretty much said all there is to say...

[OLDE CUTLER]

Read this post with interest and the comments and suggestions that ensued. I have posted several times in the past on this subject and for those who haven't read them I offer the following:

One of the biggest factors(in my opinion)in celluloid degradation has to be temperature. I base this on my experience with a similar material that has a tendency to degrade:vinyl and specifically vinyl used in automotive applications.I first noticed this when I bought a new Mustang GT in 1982. I had stopped smoking the year before and I began to notice that a film would appear on the inside of the windshield about every two to three weeks during the summertime. It would clean off reasonably easy only to re-appear in a few weeks.As the car was black(interior was red)and the windows usually up the temperature inside the vehicle was considerable.
I finally deduced that the vinyl covering on the dashboard was out-gassing and causing the film on the windshield. Attempting to arrest it through the use of various chemical preservatives was to no avail. Eventually the outgassing slows and stops but by that time the vinyl has dried to the point that it becomes extremely brittle and cracking commences.
Another factor in the degradation of celluloid I believe is the introduction of petroleum based products on the surfaces.On picture handled knives this is a death knell for any pictures on the undersides.The petroleum causes the image to gradually turn black and then disappear completely.
One of the strangest scenarios with celluloid handled knives is where one side completely disintegrates but the other side is completely unaffected.I have had several knives on which this has occurred and I cannot explain why.One was an Aerial coke bottle folder;another was a Novelty Cutlery Co.letter opener knife(both were picture handles);another was a Robeson swing guard and another a Camillus trapper(yellow cel)while still another was a KA-BAR folding hunter and a Buck Creek swing guard(cracked ice).
The Buck Creek was particularly insidious as the blade was corroding but the handles weren't showing any outward signs of deterioration. One day after cleaning it I pushed down on the lock and the entire back of the knife broke off! The out-gassing had completely eaten through the brass liners causing them to fail. The handles STILL showed no signs of deterioration.
Another one I bought just because it was so deteriorated was a small STA-SHARP pen that had completely broken in half(backspring included)but the stainless blades showed absolutely no signs of damage.
I wish I had an answer to the mystery of their deterioration and how to combat it;I would likely be a very rich man. Here are some pics of the ones I have.

Wow, lots of interesting reading in this old thread. I was searching thru old threads for more info on a knife I picked up last week, tangstamp is "N. C. Co. Canton O". Goins lists this as Novelty Cutlery Company, Canton Ohio and were famous for the picture knives they made with a process for making the handle material completely transparent. When I first saw this knife I realized that it must have had a picture under the handle material as the material was transparent. But what happened to the picture? The text above goes into how the picture can actually over time disappear. As you can see in my photos, you can still see thru the transparent handle material, there are two black lines on either end on both sides, but the picture has vanished. Very strange. I was able to slip a small piece of paper between the handle material and the brass liner to check if the transparency still was there, and it is but has yellowed somewhat. I don't believe that the knife has been apart, so the mystery remains, where did the picture go? Thanks to knife7knut for his observations on this subject, and my knife and photos seem to back this up.

[Mumbleypeg]

I suspect the nitric, or nitrous acid, which celluloid outgassing process produces, dissolved or otherwise attacked the ink or emulsion used to produce the photographic image. It may have dissolved the entire media. JMO - I’m no chemist.

Ken

[knife7knut]

The celluloid on your knife does not appear to be degrading.I base this on the fact that when this occurs the bolsters will usually have a brownish discoloration on them next to the handles. As to the deterioration of the pictures,I would attribute this to a couple of things.First if any petroleum substance(such as oil)has wicked onto them from oiling the joints this will tend to turn the images dark. Secondly the paper they were printed on likely contained acid that was incurred during production of the paper and helped along by exposure to sunlight.This very frequently happens with old photographs.
My suggestion would be to leave the knife as is and store it separately from other knives but not in an airtight container.A small dessicant bag inside wouldn't hurt either.

[Quick Steel]

Is anyone familiar with this technique of celluloid preservation? Comments please.

"In Shirley Dunn’s book “Celluloid Collectibles” she recommends washing gently in warm or lukewarm water with a little pine solvent to clean Celluloid pieces. She also claims that Celluloid disease or Celluloid rot can be stopped by soaking the item in a solution of baking soda and water. She also suggests that it would probably be a good procedure to routinely wash Celluloid items in baking soda. Care of Celluloid using baking soda can also be used to remove spots on Celluloid pieces."

[Knife Nut]

Baking soda and water......you piqued my interest.
Is there a formula for ratio of baking soda + water.
It seems that I have tried everything else.
Will give this a try.

Paul

[edge213]

Read this post with interest and the comments and suggestions that ensued. I have posted several times in the past on this subject and for those who haven't read them I offer the following:

One of the biggest factors(in my opinion)in celluloid degradation has to be temperature. I base this on my experience with a similar material that has a tendency to degrade:vinyl and specifically vinyl used in automotive applications.I first noticed this when I bought a new Mustang GT in 1982. I had stopped smoking the year before and I began to notice that a film would appear on the inside of the windshield about every two to three weeks during the summertime. It would clean off reasonably easy only to re-appear in a few weeks.As the car was black(interior was red)and the windows usually up the temperature inside the vehicle was considerable.
I finally deduced that the vinyl covering on the dashboard was out-gassing and causing the film on the windshield. Attempting to arrest it through the use of various chemical preservatives was to no avail. Eventually the outgassing slows and stops but by that time the vinyl has dried to the point that it becomes extremely brittle and cracking commences.
Another factor in the degradation of celluloid I believe is the introduction of petroleum based products on the surfaces.On picture handled knives this is a death knell for any pictures on the undersides.The petroleum causes the image to gradually turn black and then disappear completely.
One of the strangest scenarios with celluloid handled knives is where one side completely disintegrates but the other side is completely unaffected.I have had several knives on which this has occurred and I cannot explain why.One was an Aerial coke bottle folder;another was a Novelty Cutlery Co.letter opener knife(both were picture handles);another was a Robeson swing guard and another a Camillus trapper(yellow cel)while still another was a KA-BAR folding hunter and a Buck Creek swing guard(cracked ice).
The Buck Creek was particularly insidious as the blade was corroding but the handles weren't showing any outward signs of deterioration. One day after cleaning it I pushed down on the lock and the entire back of the knife broke off! The out-gassing had completely eaten through the brass liners causing them to fail. The handles STILL showed no signs of deterioration.
Another one I bought just because it was so deteriorated was a small STA-SHARP pen that had completely broken in half(backspring included)but the stainless blades showed absolutely no signs of damage.
I wish I had an answer to the mystery of their deterioration and how to combat it;I would likely be a very rich man. Here are some pics of the ones I have.

Wow, lots of interesting reading in this old thread. I was searching thru old threads for more info on a knife I picked up last week, tangstamp is "N. C. Co. Canton O". Goins lists this as Novelty Cutlery Company, Canton Ohio and were famous for the picture knives they made with a process for making the handle material completely transparent. When I first saw this knife I realized that it must have had a picture under the handle material as the material was transparent. But what happened to the picture? The text above goes into how the picture can actually over time disappear. As you can see in my photos, you can still see thru the transparent handle material, there are two black lines on either end on both sides, but the picture has vanished. Very strange. I was able to slip a small piece of paper between the handle material and the brass liner to check if the transparency still was there, and it is but has yellowed somewhat. I don't believe that the knife has been apart, so the mystery remains, where did the picture go? Thanks to knife7knut for his observations on this subject, and my knife and photos seem to back this up.

IMG_3312.JPG
IMG_3311.JPG
IMG_3313.JPG
IMG_3314.JPG

I've had a few picture knives (Wabash Cutlery) do this same thing.
My theory (no proof) is moisture gets under the clear handle material to cause this.

[LongBlade]

Is anyone familiar with this technique of celluloid preservation? Comments please.

"In Shirley Dunn’s book “Celluloid Collectibles” she recommends washing gently in warm or lukewarm water with a little pine solvent to clean Celluloid pieces. She also claims that Celluloid disease or Celluloid rot can be stopped by soaking the item in a solution of baking soda and water. She also suggests that it would probably be a good procedure to routinely wash Celluloid items in baking soda. Care of Celluloid using baking soda can also be used to remove spots on Celluloid pieces."

QS - Never have heard of that method for celluloid but basically from a chemistry perspective the baking soda is neutralizing the nitric acid outgassing... personally I do not see this as stopping the outgassing but "maybe" temporarily stopping or slowing the deterioration phenomenon ... I have never heard of any method to reverse it or stop it completely but outgassing can be possibly prevented or the chances of it occurring reduced, so they say, in the dark and constant room temperature... Personally I throw in anti-tarnish strips in many of my knife storage boxes and use anti-tarnish or silverware cloth - theoretically these strips or material are supposed to neutralize gases such as from celluloid outgassing - I have very few celluloid handled knives (maybe 5..) - I store those few knives together and not with other knives should outgassing occur.. Earlier in the thread Keith mentioned (actually a few years ago now ) that carrying the knife in the pocket is key. To that point I should say one of my celluloid handled knives was a favorite EDC of a fellow who passed away a few years ago and he had carried that knife in his pocket for probably years - celluloid not only looks good but the blades have a wonderful rich patina so perhaps there is something to keeping it in your pocket ... I know one thing - if someone developed a guaranteed method to prevent celluloid outgassing it would potentially make alot of money with collectors of not only knives but pens etc etc...

[Quick Steel]

This thread just prompted my curiosity and I had the same thought as you, i.e. if a preventative could be developed it would be a best seller. Basically, Google led me to a lot of inputs on repair of celluloid deterioration in guitars etc. all of which seemed complex (to me) with some advising not to attempt to repair cracks in celluloid. The above was the only quote addressing prevention with some substance. There was other standard advice, e.g. avoid heat, allow it to breathe, store separately etc.

It seems to me the project would be worth a chemist's time. I avoid the whole issue by not acquiring celluloid knives. But there are some beautiful ones out there.

[Mumbleypeg]

Interesting point about avoiding celluloid knives. I have several but I refuse to spend much money on one, no more than I can afford to throw away in case they go “pfffffft”.

If you have some antiques in your house, chances are you have celluloid. It was used to make ornamentation or accessorize furniture, clocks, personal grooming items, and so on. Perhaps such items can provide clues about celluloid. For example we have an old heirloom Seth Thomas mantle clock which dates to the late 1800s, and belonged to my great grandparents. Not worth much except for sentimental value, but it still runs and keeps time well. The clock’s facade has celluloid “columns” which, although they have shrunk slightly, are still intact and exhibit no other signs of deterioration. During its existence the clock has been in a somewhat climate controlled, indoor open air, out of direct sunlight (as far as I know) environment. Anecdotal evidence for sure, but sitting on the mantle of a fireplace seems to be a good place for celluloid.

Which equates somewhat to where I keep my celluloid handled knives - indoors, out of sunlight, sitting unenclosed on a shelf. So far, so good. Carrying one in a pocket and removing nightly so it is allowed to breathe is similar.

Ken

[OLDE CUTLER]

The celluloid on your knife does not appear to be degrading.I base this on the fact that when this occurs the bolsters will usually have a brownish discoloration on them next to the handles. As to the deterioration of the pictures,I would attribute this to a couple of things.First if any petroleum substance(such as oil)has wicked onto them from oiling the joints this will tend to turn the images dark. Secondly the paper they were printed on likely contained acid that was incurred during production of the paper and helped along by exposure to sunlight.This very frequently happens with old photographs.
My suggestion would be to leave the knife as is and store it separately from other knives but not in an airtight container.A small dessicant bag inside wouldn't hurt either.

I would tend to agree with you. The celluloid has not shrunk or cracked or shown other signs. Which means that the disappearing picture under the handle material is caused by a process other than outgassing. Do you think all of these picture knives have suffered this fate, or does someone still have a good one with a visible picture?

[knife7knut]

I would tend to agree with you. The celluloid has not shrunk or cracked or shown other signs. Which means that the disappearing picture under the handle material is caused by a process other than outgassing. Do you think all of these picture knives have suffered this fate, or does someone still have a good one with a visible picture?

Here is one that I have that looks as good as it did when it came out of the factory. Not sure why. Also two others that are still in reasonably good shape.Showing both sides of the knives.

[eveled]

What about storing them in baking soda? Literally buried in a container filled with baking soda.