Elephant Ivory Handles

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mrwatch
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Re: Elephant Ivory Handles

Postby mrwatch » Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:45 pm

without digging into it I believe that you now have to prove the ivory is over 100 years old. also may be illegal to sell over some state lines. Read buying or selling at antique shows and I have heard talk at a show about Bear claws. As per Trump's new change is only for tusks taken in two country's in 2017 and I read heads for taxidermy mounts. I have sold at and attended many antique shows over the years and have not seen or heard of any officers checking dealers booths including a few of the largest ones in Chicago. Just my writings and your millage may very.

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QTCut5
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Re: Elephant Ivory Handles

Postby QTCut5 » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:29 pm

kootenay joe wrote:Neat, here we have 3 # 73 pattern knives that have been re-handled with ivory. The 73 is a great size( ~ 3 3/4") and a great single blade knife and it seems people like to get their favorite handle material on it.
kj

Actually, koot, mine is a Northfield pattern #23 at 4 1/2" closed length. Unless you have some kind of reference for size comparison, the #23 and the #73 can be difficult to tell apart.

~Q~
Every breath you take is borrowed, it wasn't yours to begin with and it won't be yours to end with--Oglala Lakota maxim.
All persons, living and dead, are purely coincidental. (Kurt Vonnegut)

Nothing is forever, just like everything.

kootenay joe
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Re: Elephant Ivory Handles

Postby kootenay joe » Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:44 pm

Sorry, i made an assumption. 73 or 23, both are well suited to ivory or mammoth covers. Now we need someone to use one of these to field dress a deer and report back as to how slippery (or not) the ivory becomes when coated with some blood or fat. Skin oils over time deepen the yellow hues in ivory. Does blood affect the color of ivory ?
kj

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QTCut5
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Re: Elephant Ivory Handles

Postby QTCut5 » Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:36 pm

I don't expect either of these two will be exposed to any blood -- unless I accidentally cut myself while opening or closing the blades...which are very sharp with original factory edges and have relatively stiff springs.

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~Q~
Every breath you take is borrowed, it wasn't yours to begin with and it won't be yours to end with--Oglala Lakota maxim.
All persons, living and dead, are purely coincidental. (Kurt Vonnegut)

Nothing is forever, just like everything.

kootenay joe
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Re: Elephant Ivory Handles

Postby kootenay joe » Sun Nov 26, 2017 4:14 am

Q, what are the markings on those lovely sleeveboard pens ? What is their age ?
I have not seen anything like tang markings on secondary blade, knife with bar shield.
kj

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QTCut5
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Re: Elephant Ivory Handles

Postby QTCut5 » Sun Nov 26, 2017 2:34 pm

Federal Badge Shield is a salesman's sample Vulcan T. Ellin & Co., Sheffield, England, c. 1846-1944
Closed Length = 3.5"

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Bar Shield is a Ford & Medley, Sheffield, England, c. 1872-1930
Closed Length = 3.25"

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Thanks for looking.
~Q~
Every breath you take is borrowed, it wasn't yours to begin with and it won't be yours to end with--Oglala Lakota maxim.
All persons, living and dead, are purely coincidental. (Kurt Vonnegut)

Nothing is forever, just like everything.

kootenay joe
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Re: Elephant Ivory Handles

Postby kootenay joe » Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:07 pm

And thank you for showing the markings. Both are Sheffield with maker's mark not merchant. I have a few Sheffield ivory pen knives that look very similar. My guess is that they are most likely from the time between WW I & WW II, and closer to WW I.
I have other Sheffield ivory pen knives with yellowish ivory & i think these are older.
Do you agree that your two are likely from sometime after WW I ?
kj

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QTCut5
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Re: Elephant Ivory Handles

Postby QTCut5 » Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:31 pm

kootenay joe wrote:And thank you for showing the markings. Both are Sheffield with maker's mark not merchant. I have a few Sheffield ivory pen knives that look very similar. My guess is that they are most likely from the time between WW I & WW II, and closer to WW I.
I have other Sheffield ivory pen knives with yellowish ivory & i think these are older.
Do you agree that your two are likely from sometime after WW I ?
kj


You're welcome...I love showing my knives to an appreciative audience, it's my pleasure.

Regarding their actual age or specific year of manufacture I would defer to your best judgement, KJ, since these are my first real 'vintage' or antique knives (definitely the oldest knives in my collection), and you are an expert or, at the very least, a highly respected collector with a lot of knowledge and experience. In the interest of gaining more knowledge myself on the issue of dating vintage knives, I am curious as to what specific things you see in these two that would suggest a date of manufacture as post- WWI (after 1918) as opposed to pre-WWI (before 1914)? Other than simply their overall condition, and the makers' marks instead of the merchants' as you pointed out, I haven't a clue.

~Q~
Every breath you take is borrowed, it wasn't yours to begin with and it won't be yours to end with--Oglala Lakota maxim.
All persons, living and dead, are purely coincidental. (Kurt Vonnegut)

Nothing is forever, just like everything.

kootenay joe
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Re: Elephant Ivory Handles

Postby kootenay joe » Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:56 pm

Q thank you for your kind words but really i know very little of what is a huge body of knowledge that "knives" encompass.
My thought that your knives are from soon after WW I is a guess based on their overall appearance, not on any specific feature or marking. And i could be quite wrong.
When i have the time i will get out a few ivory Sheffield knives of differing ages and post pictures here.
The manufacture of knives in Sheffield from about 1830 to WW I produced the finest knives ever made up to & including the present.
WW I depleted Britain of a lot of money & 'personal energy'. During WW I cutlery manufacturers switched to making military knives and then afterwards had to get back to making pocket knives for civilians. The supply of young men to work in the factories had been severely depleted by WW I so there were fewer to learn the trade and replace those who died or retired. The net result was a gradual decline in the quality of workmanship such that by end of WW II Sheffield was not longer the center for fine cutlery manufacture.
There were still a great many fine knives made in Sheffield between WWI & WW II but the real zenith for Sheffield occurred before WW I.
kj

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Re: Elephant Ivory Handles

Postby kootenay joe » Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:51 am

Here are 4 Queen made knives with either elephant ivory or mammoth ivory, likely from 1990's or very early 2000's. Two are branded "Northwoods" and were made for Dave Shirley. Canoe is 3 5/8"; Baby Sunfish is 3 1/2"
In pictures showing all 4 knives, the center 2 are elephant ivory and the top & bottom ones are mammoth ivory.
kj
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QTCut5
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Re: Elephant Ivory Handles

Postby QTCut5 » Mon Dec 25, 2017 12:30 pm

Great looking knives, kj...museum quality show pieces.
I was watching (not bidding on) that Northwoods ext. ivory canoe (2nd down from top) on eBay recently...I was surprised, as I expect you were as well, at the price it sold for; WoW! you totally stole that one, my friend (I noticed that the same seller currently has another one listed for a BIN price that is over four times what you paid for yours). Congratulations, it could not have gone to someone more deserving. And what a beautiful addition to an already stunning collection!

I am curious about your evaluation of the overall quality of Queen made Northwoods compared to GEC made Northwoods. Personally, I feel that although the handle materials used by both companies is top shelf, the GEC made knives are generally higher quality construction--fit & finish, walk & talk and a certain hard-to-define "feel". It seems I am not alone in this assessment as it is not unusual to see the Queen made Northwoods sell for substantially less on eBay than their GEC cousins. In addition to your ivory canoe, I recently watched a beautiful Queen made Northwoods stag whittler barely reach $100 final sale price--I can't recall the last time I saw any pattern GEC Northwoods in stag, and much less ivory, sell for anywhere near that low. Is GEC so much better than Queen or has Queen so tarnished its reputation from years of inconsistent quality and producing enough sub-par products that people just don't trust the brand enough to pay top dollar for its products? Obviously Queen can and does make some superior knives (I know because I have several), but its general production quality, especially under the Schatt & Morgan banner (which is supposedly Queen's flagship line), is all too often a risky game of hit-or-miss Russian roulette.

~Q~
Every breath you take is borrowed, it wasn't yours to begin with and it won't be yours to end with--Oglala Lakota maxim.
All persons, living and dead, are purely coincidental. (Kurt Vonnegut)

Nothing is forever, just like everything.

kootenay joe
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Re: Elephant Ivory Handles

Postby kootenay joe » Mon Dec 25, 2017 6:00 pm

Quote: " has Queen so tarnished its reputation from years of inconsistent quality and producing enough sub-par products that people just don't trust the brand enough to pay top dollar for its products"
Yes, i think this is the situation. It is interesting how the knives from each manufacturer have an 'energy' or feel that is unique to each brand. As such the Queen knives do give off a different 'atmosphere' or 'presence' than do the GEC knives, but the overall quality of build is now quite close. I say "now" because the Queen made knives i have marked "DFK" (Daniels Family Knife) and made in the last 2 years are better than the Queens made during the 10-15 years prior. That said these 2 Queen made Northwoods are from at least 10 years ago and they are nicely made.
Queen has (or certainly had) some very fine stag & other handle materials so in general their handles are very nice. The blade grinds are still a bit thicker than those of GEC and the edges are 'sharp-ish' whereas many GEC's are 'fairly sharp'. Of the 4 Queen knives with a total of 8 blades, all have good W & T and zero blade play; i.e. absolutely no issues with blade action.
Given the lower prices, many of the Queen knives are a pleasing knife, and a very good deal. The average price i paid for the above 4 Queen knives is ~ $165. The quality of the ivory and the mammoth is high which is what gives these knives value.
kj

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Tsar Bomba
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Re: Elephant Ivory Handles

Postby Tsar Bomba » Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:54 am

QTCut5 wrote:It seems I am not alone in this assessment as it is not unusual to see the Queen made Northwoods sell for substantially less on eBay than their GEC cousins.

What I wouldn't give for this to be true of the Everyday Barlow... ::facepalm::

@Q & kj: Absolutely stunning display of ol' pachyderm-toof knives, gents. ::handshake:: I always enjoy a humbling moment every so often when I realize that my piddling little accumulation isn't worth the time it took to gather in comparison to some of the museums folks around here must have. Keep 'em comin (and when you get tired of 'em put 'em up for sale on AAPK!) :lol:
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BWT
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Re: Elephant Ivory Handles

Postby BWT » Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:18 am

QTCut5 wrote:I don't expect either of these two will be exposed to any blood -- unless I accidentally cut myself while opening or closing the blades...which are very sharp with original factory edges and have relatively stiff springs.

PB240015.JPGPB240029.JPGPB240025.JPG

~Q~

Thanks for sharing your knives, really nice, I enjoy older knives and those are looking good, thanks.
Bill

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QTCut5
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Re: Elephant Ivory Handles

Postby QTCut5 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:16 pm

Tsar Bomba wrote: some of the museums folks around here must have. Keep 'em comin (and when you get tired of 'em put 'em up for sale on AAPK!) :lol:


I'm flattered that you would consider my modest collection to be in the same universe as kootenay joe's...if only! His ivory collection is the Smithsonian compared to my humble little folding card table weekend local county fair display. Nevertheless, even as a small-time collector of ivory knives, it's highly unlikely I'll ever get tired of them or put any of mine up for sale. Fortunately, there are still a few purveyors of fine ivory knives who are willing and able to supply ivory junkies like myself with 'product' to continue feeding the addiction. There are enough ivory knives currently for sale right here on AAPK, both vintage and modern, to get other potential ivory addicts hooked. So, come join the party...one small purchase won't hurt (and you can quit anytime you want ::sneaky:: ).

Check out Sanders Knives AAPK store for vintage pre-ban E. ivory:
https://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/ca ... k=2&page=2

Plumbob has some very nice modern mammoth ivory offerings by Schatt & Morgan:
https://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/ca ... C&path=618

Keith's Classics & Frank's Classic Knives also have a wide variety of modern mammoth ivory knives.

Happy shopping...and don't worry about missing a mortgage payment on your house, ivory is totally worth it and surely the bank will understand (besides, it takes a long time to actually evict someone and repossess their home--in the meantime, you can sell some of your "lesser" knives to cover the cost).

~Q~
Every breath you take is borrowed, it wasn't yours to begin with and it won't be yours to end with--Oglala Lakota maxim.
All persons, living and dead, are purely coincidental. (Kurt Vonnegut)

Nothing is forever, just like everything.


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