Elephant Ivory Handles

[Ivoryman]

Very cool and funky piece KJ. Never seen anything like it, must be rare and few out there. Great show.
I just put elephant scales on this one a few days ago. The newest elephant in the very small herd. Came from a piece of tusk that was near the very top, where the hollow is for the root so it was an arched piece I had to grind down a lot to make it a flat slab suitable for the thick scales on this Lionsteel Barlow. As a result the grain came out different on both scales, but still looks decent because of the color match. But it feels great even if the grain doesn't match. Nothing feels like ivory.

[kootenay joe]

Nice work Ivoryman. I like how you have radiused the edges. Makes for a better looking and better in hand feel than leaving them square. It amazes me how many knife makers do not radius the edges of ivory into a graceful curve.
kj

[PCwizard]

Wow, KJ...that is a very cool and interesting piece. You never cease to amaze with what you have in your vast collection. Great stuff, love seeing it.

What is the status of knives with ivory handles made from 1976 to the present ? Presumably without correct documentation that the ivory was obtained prior to 1976, these knives are no longer legal to sell, trade or give away, BUT, are legal to own. If you understand this 'mess' differently please post.
kj

Just re-read your Aug. 14 post and I believe you are correct with regard to the illegality of transfer of ownership through sale or trade, not sure about giving it away, though, as I believe there may be an allowance for inherited ivory from wills and estates, etc. As far as simple ownership of "legal" (pre-ban) ivory, although somewhat unlikely, you may still run into legal hassles if you transport your own ivory across state lines (such as when moving your residence to a different state, or going to or returning from a knife show, etc.). There was an incident in which a musical performance group (band or orchestra of some type) had certain musical instruments containing ivory parts seized by over-zealous government agents while traveling around the country on a national tour. I remember reading about this, but now I can't seem to locate my source. As I recall, they eventually got their instruments returned, but not without a lot of hassle involving lawyers and disruption of their tour schedule, venue reservations, ticket refunds, etc. I'll keep digging to see if I can locate the source where I read about that. Maybe somebody else read the same news story and can help find it; it was about a year ago, or maybe two, when I first read it. But, the bottom line is that the ivory ban has indeed created a legal mess for a lot of otherwise law-abiding, honest citizens. Although, it's still available for purchase on eBay from time to time (as long as do-gooder informants don't see it and squeal to the Gestapo).

~Q~

Q is this the news article your talking about. "musical instruments seized'

https://www.washingtonpost.com/entertai ... 2b9138a77a

[QTCut5]

Thanks Gary. That's not the exact article, but it does reference the incident I remembered reading about: The Budapest Festival Orchestra having some bows confiscated when entering the US for a tour in 2014. There was also another incident involving some bagpipes being brought across the US/Canadian border. The point being that even if you are the legal owner of any ivory (pre-ban or otherwise), if you can't prove the age of your ivory any time a government agent requests it, chances are it will be confiscated. In other words, you're automatically considered guilty unless you can prove you're innocent.

~Q~

[gino]

2011 GEC 73 rehandled in 2012

[edge213]

Very nice gino.

[jerryd6818]

i.e., associate it with elephant poaching that supports terrorist organizations,
~Q~

I said years ago that to get any law passed or rule laid down, all you had to do was connect it to children or safety (all you have to do is say it, not prove it). And if you could show, even tangentially, that it was related to the safety of children it would be a slam dunk. It looks like now, whether true or not, we can add "terrorism" to that list.

[QTCut5]

i.e., associate it with elephant poaching that supports terrorist organizations,
~Q~

I said years ago that to get any law passed or rule laid down, all you had to do was connect it to children or safety (all you have to do is say it, not prove it). And if you could show, even tangentially, that it was related to the safety of children it would be a slam dunk. It looks like now, whether true or not, we can add "terrorism" to that list.

True dat...with the caveat that whether or not the law gets passed has a lot to do with how much it personally affects the ones in power and the corporate owners/shareholders pulling their strings. In the case of ivory, it has virtually zero affect on any significant power holders/brokers, so they'll let the activists have that win since banning ivory won't even register a blip on the stock market radar and it has the added bonus of making it look like they're actually "fighting" terrorism. You know what else supports terrorism? and to a degree that dwarfs the illegal ivory trade? ...Oil. But, don't expect to see any bans on oil imports from the mid east anytime soon.

~Q~

[kootenay joe]

Here is my re-handled GEC with elephant ivory, by the very skilled "Muskrat Man"; model # 721110.
kj

[edge213]

KJ, that one is beautiful. Great job Muskrat.

[kootenay joe]

Yes, thank you. The ivory when seen in person is really top grade and Caleb's work is masterful. He was already doing excellent work when he was only 17. Now he is a master of knives. He deserves to be on everyone's list of 'Knife maker/restorers'.
kj

[Old Hunter]

Just read on a hunting site that President Trump has rescinded the restrictions on legally taken trophies. Don't know if that is real or "fake news". OH

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politi ... ts-n821331

[QTCut5]

I believe this is another muskrat man mod. I picked it up in a swap with big monk some time ago.

~Q~

[Ivoryman]

Wow that's beautiful KJ, great looking ivory. Q that's a great looker too. Very nice men. Hat tip to Muskrat Man too.

[kootenay joe]

Neat, here we have 3 # 73 pattern knives that have been re-handled with ivory. The 73 is a great size( ~ 3 3/4") and a great single blade knife and it seems people like to get their favorite handle material on it.
kj

[mrwatch]

without digging into it I believe that you now have to prove the ivory is over 100 years old. also may be illegal to sell over some state lines. Read buying or selling at antique shows and I have heard talk at a show about Bear claws. As per Trump's new change is only for tusks taken in two country's in 2017 and I read heads for taxidermy mounts. I have sold at and attended many antique shows over the years and have not seen or heard of any officers checking dealers booths including a few of the largest ones in Chicago. Just my writings and your millage may very.

[QTCut5]

Neat, here we have 3 # 73 pattern knives that have been re-handled with ivory. The 73 is a great size( ~ 3 3/4") and a great single blade knife and it seems people like to get their favorite handle material on it.
kj

Actually, koot, mine is a Northfield pattern #23 at 4 1/2" closed length. Unless you have some kind of reference for size comparison, the #23 and the #73 can be difficult to tell apart.

~Q~

[kootenay joe]

Sorry, i made an assumption. 73 or 23, both are well suited to ivory or mammoth covers. Now we need someone to use one of these to field dress a deer and report back as to how slippery (or not) the ivory becomes when coated with some blood or fat. Skin oils over time deepen the yellow hues in ivory. Does blood affect the color of ivory ?
kj

[QTCut5]

I don't expect either of these two will be exposed to any blood -- unless I accidentally cut myself while opening or closing the blades...which are very sharp with original factory edges and have relatively stiff springs.

~Q~

[kootenay joe]

Q, what are the markings on those lovely sleeveboard pens ? What is their age ?
I have not seen anything like tang markings on secondary blade, knife with bar shield.
kj

[QTCut5]

Federal Badge Shield is a salesman's sample Vulcan T. Ellin & Co., Sheffield, England, c. 1846-1944
Closed Length = 3.5"

Bar Shield is a Ford & Medley, Sheffield, England, c. 1872-1930
Closed Length = 3.25"

Thanks for looking.
~Q~

[kootenay joe]

And thank you for showing the markings. Both are Sheffield with maker's mark not merchant. I have a few Sheffield ivory pen knives that look very similar. My guess is that they are most likely from the time between WW I & WW II, and closer to WW I.
I have other Sheffield ivory pen knives with yellowish ivory & i think these are older.
Do you agree that your two are likely from sometime after WW I ?
kj

[QTCut5]

And thank you for showing the markings. Both are Sheffield with maker's mark not merchant. I have a few Sheffield ivory pen knives that look very similar. My guess is that they are most likely from the time between WW I & WW II, and closer to WW I.
I have other Sheffield ivory pen knives with yellowish ivory & i think these are older.
Do you agree that your two are likely from sometime after WW I ?
kj

You're welcome...I love showing my knives to an appreciative audience, it's my pleasure.

Regarding their actual age or specific year of manufacture I would defer to your best judgement, KJ, since these are my first real 'vintage' or antique knives (definitely the oldest knives in my collection), and you are an expert or, at the very least, a highly respected collector with a lot of knowledge and experience. In the interest of gaining more knowledge myself on the issue of dating vintage knives, I am curious as to what specific things you see in these two that would suggest a date of manufacture as post- WWI (after 1918) as opposed to pre-WWI (before 1914)? Other than simply their overall condition, and the makers' marks instead of the merchants' as you pointed out, I haven't a clue.

~Q~

[kootenay joe]

Q thank you for your kind words but really i know very little of what is a huge body of knowledge that "knives" encompass.
My thought that your knives are from soon after WW I is a guess based on their overall appearance, not on any specific feature or marking. And i could be quite wrong.
When i have the time i will get out a few ivory Sheffield knives of differing ages and post pictures here.
The manufacture of knives in Sheffield from about 1830 to WW I produced the finest knives ever made up to & including the present.
WW I depleted Britain of a lot of money & 'personal energy'. During WW I cutlery manufacturers switched to making military knives and then afterwards had to get back to making pocket knives for civilians. The supply of young men to work in the factories had been severely depleted by WW I so there were fewer to learn the trade and replace those who died or retired. The net result was a gradual decline in the quality of workmanship such that by end of WW II Sheffield was not longer the center for fine cutlery manufacture.
There were still a great many fine knives made in Sheffield between WWI & WW II but the real zenith for Sheffield occurred before WW I.
kj

[kootenay joe]

Here are 4 Queen made knives with either elephant ivory or mammoth ivory, likely from 1990's or very early 2000's. Two are branded "Northwoods" and were made for Dave Shirley. Canoe is 3 5/8"; Baby Sunfish is 3 1/2"
In pictures showing all 4 knives, the center 2 are elephant ivory and the top & bottom ones are mammoth ivory.
kj