Learning to spot a real Russell Barlow

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jon_slider
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Re: Learning to spot a real Russell Barlow

Post by jon_slider »

JACKNIFEBEN wrote:Does this 18 inch "butcher" knife have anything to do with these Russell knives and is it worth anything?
google:
"Dexter Russell 12" Blade Cimeter Steak Knife Straight Dark Wood Handle"

available new for $45, made by the current USA Dexter-Russell company.
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Dragunski
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Re: Learning to spot a real Russell Barlow

Post by Dragunski »

jon_slider wrote:
jon_slider wrote:Here is a knife stamped Boker Solingen Germany with a Russell Green River Works blade etch and a Bolster with an R with an Arrow through it. I believe it is one of the unauthorized reproductions from 1971.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-zhMo ... 524_57.JPG
hmmm, the above link is wrong image, cant find the one Im looking for at the moment, but this one will illustrate a boker barlow, bottom knife, and a Boker made Russel, top knife

http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae22 ... f5a22d.jpg
Dragunski wrote:Here's a Kentucky special. See how many things you can spot. The bolster might be real, maybe.
Thanks for the challenge quiz :-)

The diamonds on the tang stamp look like the blade came from one of the 1998 authorized commemorative sets made by colonial shown on page 3 of this same thread.
here is the picture of the set
http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae22 ... 1b7eaf.jpg

my guess is, the knife dragunski posted is a genuine 1933-1941 russell handle with a blade swap to a 1998 replica. The replica bolster arrow head goes closer to the pivot end of the knife. The bolster pictured by dragunski is a correct genuine Russel bolster, imo. I would say the handle is also genuine from that period.
I am surprised that you think those black saw-cut handle slabs are original. They look very fresh to me, compared to the bolster. They don't look like they fit quite right, either. Disregarding the stamp for a moment, the blade also seems the wrong shape, a little too fat and with that curved clip on top. It also has very strange deep serrations that don't look like a "glaze" finish at all. I will take your word that it's a Colonial blade, but it seems wrong even not looking at the stamp.

Since it's hard to see the inside of the frame, the liners, etc, we can't really judge it very well. The bolster looks original, I agree, but to me, the slabs don't.
jon_slider
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Re: Learning to spot a real Russell Barlow

Post by jon_slider »

Good feedback
I agree the blade is too wide and the mill marks are weird.

I also have some doubts about the slabs but the color did exist and the way they are thicker than the bolster is Russellish. It looks like the color was ground off the edges during the rebuild cleanup.

There is also a chance the blade was one of the 1950's Russell Dexter repairs.
Especially because the bolster is original pre ww2. The 1968 commemorative bolster is different. See page 3

Russell Dexter also provided the blades on the 1968 commemorative pairs. So the diamonds could be Dexter either way, but not pre ww2

Mostly I'm guessing the slabs and handle are original because that's a cheaper fix, to just replace a blade. But I'm only guessing.
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TexasJack
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Re: Learning to spot a real Russell Barlow

Post by TexasJack »

image.jpg
image.jpg
image.jpg
I found these at an antique store and thought they may help your study.
Most are in bad condition, some have unmarked blades. I only wish I had visited sooner because I was told someone had bought the good ones a week earlier.
Let me know if you need any individual pictures.
Jack
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Re: Learning to spot a real Russell Barlow

Post by jon_slider »

congratulations on your great haul!

I would be curious to see pictures of the Russells sorted into the following categories
1. Straight line tang stamps
2a. Curved tang stamps with the middle handle pin centered (original)
2b. Curved tang stamps with the middle handle pin closer to the bolster than center (Camillus)
3. Any Russell with a long pull blade nick

about curved tang stamps, I distinguish 3 variants
1. The arrow in the R under the curved Russell lines up with the beginning of the arrow under the first S (wide arch Russell tang stamp) (original)
2. The arrow in the R under the curved Russell lines up with the beginning of the arrow under the U (narrow arch Russell tang stamp) (not original)
3. Any tang stamp with diamonds on both sides of the R under the curved Russell tang stamp (post ww2)

about bolsters
1. Any bolster showing the pivot pin touching the side of the Arrow point on the bolster is original
2. Any bolster showing the pivot pin forward of the arrow head is not original.

The easiest way to shoot photos of these features is to open the primary blade to the half stop and photograph the mark side showing the whole knife.

group images of the handles with blades closed are also informative, grouped by those with the middle pin in center, and those with the middle pin closer to the bolster end.

If the middle pin is not centered, the knife is not original, but Camillus made a number of good ones under contract, before WW1, with the middle pin closer to the bolster.

thanks!
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Re: Learning to spot a real Russell Barlow

Post by TexasJack »

This evening I will sort them.
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Re: Learning to spot a real Russell Barlow

Post by TexasJack »

image.jpg
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Re: Learning to spot a real Russell Barlow

Post by TexasJack »

image.jpg
Edit
The 3rd one is pictured again two post down.
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Re: Learning to spot a real Russell Barlow

Post by TexasJack »

image.jpg
R with diamonds on each side.
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Re: Learning to spot a real Russell Barlow

Post by TexasJack »

image.jpg
Pin placement not original Russell
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Re: Learning to spot a real Russell Barlow

Post by TexasJack »

image.jpg
Can't read tang stamp.
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Re: Learning to spot a real Russell Barlow

Post by TexasJack »

My photographic skills are lacking but let me know if you need close ups of any of these pictured.
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Re: Learning to spot a real Russell Barlow

Post by TexasJack »

image.jpg
In the knife role were 6 knives that weren't Russell Barlows.
I am going to check them out in my book.
I'm not sure what club this is but here is a photo of the Knife Roll.
Edit.
Interesting how much info you can find on this forum.
http://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/kni ... =2&t=10858

National Knife Collectors & Dealers Association the predecessor of the N.K.C.A.
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jon_slider
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Re: Learning to spot a real Russell Barlow

Post by jon_slider »

Thanks for sharing all your Russell photos

in photo number One of the 11 knives with straight line Russells there are several knives that catch my attention.
1. blades
starting on the lower left and counting up, knife #1 has an unusual Clip point blade. Compare it to the #3 knife that has a different nail nick and the angle of the clip point is different. Note that Knife #5 has a similar nail nick and profile as #3. I suspect the #1 is the oldest, and to me, the #5 is particularly nice looking. #10 has a nice full blade, its a nice one.

2. handles
the handle on knife #2 is unusually rounded, it bothers me, but might just be something that an individual reshaped. On #8 there is a non standard pin placement, could be a repair, or an unusual batch. I like the handle shape on #8, #9, and #11, they are sort of flat slab saw cut, not rounded. But rounded is also original, #10 being a good example.

3. Blade pivots
#10 is an excellent example of where a Russell blade pivot pin is placed. Slightly to the side of the point of the arrow on the bolster. This is a good feature to look for. Replacement blades sometimes have the blade pivot further forward of the arrow head, and more centered. I will come back to this in other photos.

In photo number Two, showing 6 knives with curved line Russells
1. blades
starting left to right, #1 has a different nail nick than #2 whose nick is very deep. I would be curious to see close ups of those two tang stamps. #2 stands out as unusual.

2. handles
there are some nice looking rounded light yellow handles, #1 is nice, as well as #5. knife #3 has the middle handle pin not in the center, what I call a Camillus style handle.

3. Blade pivots
#2 pivot is very visible. Sometimes this is because it was a blade replacement, but the blade is still a Russell Harrington blade I think, because the pivot pin is in the correct location.

photo number Three, the 2 knives with blades stamped with diamonds
1. blades
#1 is possibly the fullest blade of your group of knives. I would like to see a photo of the tang stamps of #1. I believe it may be a 1950's Russell Dexter blade replacement. #2 is very unusual and may be an old blade from a Russell Jack knife, not originally a barlow, not sure.

2. handles
#1 excellent looking smooth yellow, possibly a well loved knife that was sent in for blade replacement.

3. Blade pivot pins
both #1 and #2 have visible pins, most likely from blade replacement. The tang stamp on #2 is rather unusual, it combines a straight stamp with the use of the R and USA stamps. Could be older than the curved stamp series. Curved stamps started in 1933 with the merger of Russell with Harrington.

photo number Four of 3 knives whose middle handle pins are not centered
1. Blades
#1 has an unusual 3 line tang stamp, I can't quite read it, but it does not appear to be Russell, Im curious if you can make out what it says. #2 looks like a Camillus blade to me, is the swedge only on the mark side? Please post a photo of this knife showing the blade from both sides. Long nick Russells are not original, in my opinion. I believe some are Camillus.

2. Handles
all 3 knives are good example of non Russell handles, based on the middle pin position.

3. Blade pivots
the pins on all 3 knives are further forward than on original russels. Those are good examples of a feature to look for as non original.

Photo Five of 7 knives whose tang stamps are not legible
1. Blades
#5 looks like a very full blade with a shallow nail nick, I think it is a nice one original. #6 and #7 with the long pulls I believe are not original.

2. handles
#4 bothers me, it is unusually rounded, but could have been modified by an owner. #5 and #6 have very nice handles. #7 has an extra pin in the handle, likely a repair.

3. Blade pivots
#6 pivot looks like a pin replacement with a non Russell blade. #7 pivot seems too far forward, looks like a repair with a non original blade.

One of my goals is to determine if any long pull bladed knives are non original. You have 3 long pull blades. The #2 knife in photo group 3 has a camillus style handle with the middle handle pin not in the center, so clearly not original. The #7 knife in photo group 4 is heavily modified with the blade pivot not in original position. The #6 knife shows what appears to be a blade pivot pin replacement, I don't think the blade is original.

I hope my comments are useful. Disclaimer, I am not an expert, these are just my observations, and I encourage you to get other opinions.

thanks for taking the time to share your photos, they make an excellent study tutorial of the variations in Russells from the Straight tang stamp era, 1876-1933, the curved stamp era 1933-1941, and you even have some very interesting blades with diamonds on the tang stamp that I believe are from after WW2, but I could be mistaken.

here btw is a picture of a knife dragunski linked to above, it has diamonds on the tang stamp, but the nail nick and the shape of the clip portion of the blade are different than on your yellow handled clip blade with the diamonds stamp, which is why I suggested the blade could be from a 1968 set built by Colonial, for which Russell also provided blades.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ZQAo ... E60_57.JPG

and here is a Camillus of mine,
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-R3-f ... G_7148.JPG

I think your long pull knife #2 in photo Four, pictured also here
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-3YOB ... /image.jpg
with non centered middle handle pin, may have the same blade
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Re: Learning to spot a real Russell Barlow

Post by TexasJack »

Quote"#5 looks like a very full blade with a shallow nail nick, I think it is a nice one original. #6 and #7 with the long pulls I believe are not original."



After looking and from a Tip from a member # 7 is a case tested stag handle.
I will try to get you good close up pictures of all of the others later.
This forum and also your study on Boker Barlows has been very informative to me.
I should be able to this weekend sometime.
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Re: Learning to spot a real Russell Barlow

Post by royal0014 »

Saw this 'un on fleabay..... let's put those 'fake Russell barlow' skills to the test...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/111322758843?ss ... 1423.l2649

:roll: :lol: :lol:
russellbarlow.JPG
[/color]
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goldpan
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Re: Learning to spot a real Russell Barlow

Post by goldpan »

::hmm:: Wow now that's a Russell for sure royal0014. I think I have a couple of Russells. Real and fake. I'll try to dig 'em out over the weekend and post some photos.

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Re: Learning to spot a real Russell Barlow

Post by Paladin »

Guys,
Please take a look at the Russell photos below. It doesn't really look especially old. The blades were likely darkened. The pin appears placed correctly.
Is it real? Is it Schrade, which I think not? Any ideas as to age?
I intend to put it on eBay but would like to be accurate in my description.

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goldpan
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Re: Learning to spot a real Russell Barlow

Post by goldpan »

Sorry about not loading my Russell pictures, my internet went down Saturday morning and I just now got it back up. I have trying to use my not so smart phone or maybe I'm the not so smart one..... I'll get it this done weekend for sure! Ray, the knife you show looks re-handled, with polished bolsters and the pins appear to be to large and new for the straight line tang stamp. Blades look good! Jus ::hmm:: t my 1/2 cent worth.....

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jon_slider
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Re: Learning to spot a real Russell Barlow

Post by jon_slider »

Paladin wrote:Is it real?
imho it is a 1970s German replica.

Blade pivot Pin in the wrong place, tang stamp is for pre 1933 but middle pin is not centered, so not original. The pen blade has the wrong shape tang for a USA Russel, very German imo.

Still a very nice knife with very full blades, I would guess its a Boker, with beautiful bone handles.

I believe the following pic is a genuine pre 1933, straight line Russell, you can see the pivot pin is in a different position, closer to the head of the arrow, and you can see the middle handle pin is centered.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-xZw2 ... G_6962.JPG

This next pic shows a German boker in the middle, notice the pen blade tang is similar to your Russell, and different than the other two American bokers. Also note the Left Boker, the one with a Clip point Primary, has handle pin positions similar to your Russell, also note your knife has spun pins like the boker. Russell did not spin the pins, nor did they use brass.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-vw6o ... G_8231.JPG

And here is the tang stamps, bolster pin position, and shape of pen tang on my believed original straight line Russell
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Utm2 ... G_0952.JPG

I still think your knife is a solid user and well made replica from quality materials. Worth about $60 imo.

One other thing to check is whether the pen blade and its spring are of thinner stock than the Primary blade and spring. One thing Ive noticed about Boker is the pen and primary are equal thickness stock. Whereas Russell Primary stock is thicker than pen.

Look at the space between the liners. On the left is the Clip blade Boker (same one as on the left in the 3 group shot) with equal thickness, on the right the Russell with thicker primary on far right.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-tsJ9 ... G_0954.PNG

One more difference, the bone handled Clip bladed Boker weighs 72 grams, the Russell weighs 80 grams, and in addition to thicker primary blade and spring stock it also has thicker bone handle scales than the Boker
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Re: Learning to spot a real Russell Barlow

Post by noddy »

Thanks for this. Getting an old Russell has been high on my list of priorities for a while now.

Mind that Camillus at the top still looks a nice knife :)
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goldpan
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Re: Learning to spot a real Russell Barlow

Post by goldpan »

Well here are some of my Russell barlows. The salmon colored one has been rehandled. The blades look as if they were never used!
IMGP0078.JPG
IMGP0079.JPG
IMGP0080.JPG
IMGP0081.JPG
IMGP0082.JPG
IMGP0083.JPG
IMGP0084.JPG
IMGP0085.JPG
IMGP0086.JPG
IMGP0086.JPG
IMGP0087.JPG
jon_slider
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Re: Learning to spot a real Russell Barlow

Post by jon_slider »

thanks for sharing pics goldpan, youve got some with nice full blades, both in straight line, pre 1933, and curved stamp models

I imagine you know this one is not original
http://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/kni ... &mode=view

its bolster, blade nick, and tang stamp resembles the small Barlow in this 1998 commemorative set made by Colonial
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/ ... .JPG?rt=nc

Ive never seen one with the metal handle before, I suspect its German. Could you show the tang stamp please?
http://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/kni ... &mode=view
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goldpan
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Re: Learning to spot a real Russell Barlow

Post by goldpan »

Here are the rest of my Russell knives Fixed blades too! All the folders are German made by Boker.
IMGP0088.JPG
IMGP0090.JPG
IMGP0091.JPG
IMGP0092.JPG
IMGP0093.JPG
IMGP0094.JPG
IMGP0095.JPG
IMGP0096.JPG
jon_slider
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Re: Learning to spot a real Russell Barlow

Post by jon_slider »

goldpan wrote:Here are the rest of my Russell knives Fixed blades too! All the folders are German made by Boker.
Thanks for clarifying that you are posting German Replicas, not Original Russells.
Those Bokers are nice, I especially like the stag.

check me if mistaken, I believe Boker does not use thicker stock on the primary blade, they use the same thin stock as on the Pen blade. That may be a cost saving strategy.

Most other Barlows and Jackknives I see, use thicker stock on the Primary blade. This is true for USA Original Russells as well.
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