spur saw knife

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Kiferbros
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spur saw knife

Postby Kiferbros » Thu Aug 24, 2006 1:14 pm

this is one for PA knives because I have no clue on this one and am interested in it if it could be what it looks like. here is the details and pic. check them out and let me know. anyone else with input is more than welcome.

Very Rare Old J.M. VANCE & Company ( Cock Spur Saw Knife )
Made in Philadelphia PA. U.S.A.
Order #GK11

This very old and rare "Cock Spur Saw Knife" made by J.M. Vance & Company, a hardware wholesaler of Philadelphia, Pa from 1776-19??. Knife is in mint condition. Unbelievable, this is the first and only one I have ever seen - Cherry condition.

Specifications:
(Blade) Steel - Carbon Steel
Handle - Honey Bone
Blade - Spear and Cock Spur Saw
Closed - 3-5/8"
Weight - 3.7 oz

Features:
Nickel Silver Bolsters
Nickel Silver inlaid shield
Brass liners and pins
Attachments
sawknife.jpg
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El Lobo
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Postby El Lobo » Thu Aug 24, 2006 1:29 pm

This knife, or a couple others just like it, has/have been floating around for some time. PA even asked the question in Bernard Levine's forum...

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showt ... light=Spur

Long story short...it's a cobbled knife. Or, as knifeaholic calls them, "an artificial leg joint."

Bill
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9ball
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Postby 9ball » Thu Aug 24, 2006 1:54 pm

Here another made up you may see floating around. There are some real one's out there, few and far between. Queen made one several ago, not knowing the story behind it (to my knowledge) and when they found out what it was used for, said they would never make another.

9ball
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Cock Fighter 1.jpg
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Kiferbros
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A better question then

Postby Kiferbros » Thu Aug 24, 2006 3:48 pm

I guess a better question would be who actually made this kind of knife? are there and photos of real ones? this is a knife that holds alot of interest for me but I Know I do not have the knowledge to move on one at this time, espically for the price they go for, and would like to know what to look for? who actually made them, what they looked like. I can read a knife fairly well but when talking about something like this I am in the dark.

9ball
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Postby 9ball » Thu Aug 24, 2006 4:06 pm

Hello Kiferbros,

Here is the Queen, let me check my notes and I will update this later.

9ball
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Kiferbros
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nice piece

Postby Kiferbros » Thu Aug 24, 2006 5:44 pm

nice piece, judging by the etch I am guessing it was made expressly for a club, but did any manufacturer ever make this type of knife for public sale? or is a spur saw knife a newer concept of a knife that was never actually produced for the general public?

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jonet143
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spur knives

Postby jonet143 » Thu Aug 24, 2006 5:53 pm

i believe them to be fantasy knives. no doubt the knives exist but as far as cutting the spurs on fighting cocks, i don't believe they were made for that purpose. someone might proove me wrong. it's my opinion.

johnnie
johnnie f 1949

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CCBill
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Location: The Lone Star State...

Postby CCBill » Thu Aug 24, 2006 6:56 pm

Here's one more. It's a Holley mfg. This knife has no signs of having ever been apart.
...CCBill...
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Kiferbros
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Postby Kiferbros » Thu Aug 24, 2006 7:01 pm

those are the word I'm looking for "fantasy knife" is that what this type of knife is? a fantasy knife? can anyone produce any kind of documantation of a manufacturer actually producing this knife for sale as a regular product (Excluding the Queen club knives)?

to the very of my knowledge and memory I can not rember ever seeing this type of knife in any catalog from any manufacturer (not that I know them all), so I ask can anyone prove that this type of knife was ever produced? (excluding the queen club ones)

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El Lobo
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Postby El Lobo » Thu Aug 24, 2006 7:15 pm

There have been knives with saws of that type. There are a couple of examples in the thread I gave you a link to. They may have been used for some surgery, but no one seems to be able to prove that type of saw was ever manufactured with the express purpose of tuning up your...er, ah...bird, for a cockfight. Except maybe the Queen version.

Bill
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PA Knives
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Postby PA Knives » Thu Aug 24, 2006 7:32 pm

HEY no fair :cry:

I didn't even get a chance to chim in before you guys figured out the answers. Now how I am supposed to give informatin when you guys already know this stuff. :roll: Nice job, I wanted that Vance until Bernard convinced me to look a lot closer at it. I now have one coming this is the real thing and without the saw blade. The biggest problem with this knife is the handles. Not from that era, probably early Schrade. Click on the link that Bill provided to learn more. You will see that it is always a question who made it and when. How does something so smiple as "read the knife" become so difficult. Just ask those that try to cheat us that question and they just smile all the way to the bank. ::tu::
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Author of "Great Eastern Cutlery: An American Tradition, the History of the Northfield & Tidioute Brands" & "Tidioute: A Town With an Edge" available at Knife World.

stockman
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Postby stockman » Thu Aug 24, 2006 8:20 pm

Hello, I have enjoyed this discussion on the cock spur saw, I never gave this much thought until today. What is the saw in the Napanoch tool knife? I had always thought it to be a hack saw but never wanted to try cutting anything with it. You can see a picture of the knife on pg. 297 of Levine 4th edition.


Stockman

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jonet143
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Postby jonet143 » Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:19 pm

i have owned several of the tool kits and most all i have seen have a saw included. suitable for wood or other soft cutting. i guess they were some of the original "multi tools". very suited for carry in autos and often given as advertising. they also include a small hammer. chisel, screwdriver, bottle/can opener, punch and of course a jack knife to attach them to. some are very valuable.

johnnie
johnnie f 1949

on the cutting edge is sometimes not the place to be.
please support our troops - past and present
if not a member...join the NKCA! they're on our side.

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knifeswapper
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Postby knifeswapper » Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:43 pm

The Queen above is undoubtedly for sawing a cocks spurs before fighting. All cockfighting pits have official names that almost always end in "Game Club" as "Game Cock" is one of the lineage that will fight to the death (much as many animals do for breeding rights and continuation of the species).

When cocks fight in nature they have sharp natural spurs on each leg and, if closely matched, will ruin each other (put out eyes, break legs, etc.). A long, long time ago when people decided to bread them specifically for this "game" characteristic they wanted to know which was the best fighter without ruining the winner, as well as the loser.

Thus, they saw the natural spur down to about 1/2" and affix over it a "gaff" which has a socket to fit over the spur. A 2-3" metal heal is attached to these gaffs which is pointed at the end but has no edge; about as big around as a toothpick. With these on each leg the cock that scored the most (and most accurate) strikes would become obvious without ruining the winner. And most times the loser will recover from his wounds as well.

More than you ever wanted to know about why a spur saw...

I have seen them sold as cockfighting knives even up into the Frost era.
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jonet143
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Postby jonet143 » Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:56 pm

hi mike, have you ever been to one of these "sporting" events. here in north texas there are quite a few matches held(illegal). lots of betting and generally unsavory charactors. the matches i saw ivolved roosters with very sharp metal spurs and were fought to the death. very messy. in nature, having raised a lot of chickens, squabbles are settled very quickly resulting occasionally in injury to a rooster. fighting cocks are not bread for any other reason than to win matches. i have'nt seen the queen knife but i'm sure it's high quality. i personally have never seen one at a cock fight, but i have'nt seen a lot of things. does queen tout this as a cock spur or is it a marketing ploy?
btw, you have some mighty nice peices on your site.

tell me more.

johnnie
johnnie f 1949

on the cutting edge is sometimes not the place to be.
please support our troops - past and present
if not a member...join the NKCA! they're on our side.


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