"PRE 1920 Case's Stainless" Fishing Knife?

[Robo]

The first thing that jumps out at me visually, is the "Roger's bone" handles. The color seems off for the era. Hopefully some of you can weigh in on this.

The next thing would be the "pre 1920" designation as the three two bladed Fishing Knives were of the Tested XX era: The --2093, --2095, --2098* (I've enclosed pics of each). These patterns existed pre Tested but were used on the single blade ticklers/toothpicks to differentiate between ones with Flat ground blades (093) vs. Saber ground blades (095) in the case of the 5" pattern (not characteristic of Case who usually doesn't hand out a new pattern number based on grind type alone) --1098 was for the 5 1/2" Tickler.

My Tested era "SEA BEAST" built on the 098 handle die, Has "Case's Stainless" side-ways on the main blade. And I've seen it on the smaller 093 and 095s So that doesn't raise any flags for me. But, again it's a tested era tang stamp**, not pre Tested.

So Sports Colbs might simply have his era's mixed up on this one. Could it be a rehandled 095? How 'bout the shield? Looks like an XX era shield but I've seen-- and Phiffer's book said-- there were some open "C" shields in the Tested Era. Infact I own one. So that may not be illegit.

No helpful pattern number on the pile side of the main blade either--which is helpful as Tested Era Case's don't have pattern numbers (sigh) and pre-Tested mostly do. So there's another clue that this isn't pre 1920 unless it's been scrubbed.

Nothing wrong with rehandling if that's what we have here. But you have to be clear about that, not try to fob it off as something it'd not. (See my pic of handles and jigging on a Bradford Era 098)



Check it out! Sports Colbs is a legit seller for the most part. I'll wait to here from y'all before I contact him. My Wife tells me I've been known to be wrong sometimes...

* I left off the handle portion as they vary
**The Two Books at hand that I referenced for this said "Case's Stainless" Tang Stamp was used from 42-50. which would put us in the XX era. The Stamp for that era is normally "Case' XX Stainless" So I'm not sure what's going on there.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Cases- ... 2650537181

[gsmith7158]

Robo that knife looks like a later production knife. The stamp itself is noted in some charts as 1916-20. Interestingly enough a knife similar to that is what led me to AAPK. You might find this thread of interest.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=47082

[kootenay joe]

I am not a Case collector but find it remarkable if Case used stainless steel "pre 1920". It was during the 1920's when some knife manufacturers began to gradually introduce stainless steel for their blades. The early versions of stainless steel used for knife blades sometimes had 'issues' like a chip breaking off the edge with sharpening. It was not the quality of later stainless formulations.
kj

[olderdogs1]

Looks like a USA shield to me.

Tom

[doglegg]

Robot that knife looks like a later production knife. The stamp itself is noted in some charts as 1916-20. Interestingly enough a knife similar to that is what led me to AAPK. You might find this thread of interest.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=47082

Greg, 7634 post later and now you are something of an expert! And you can still be funny.

[jlw257]

Whoever work on the knife put the blades in opposite from my knife

[Robo]

Robot that knife looks like a later production knife. The stamp itself is noted in some charts as 1916-20.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=47082

Greg, yes, so we are in agreement. I believe it is a Tested Era 095 pattern re-handled as the handles don't appear to be era correct. I'm glad you provided that chart with what appears to be the correct years for "Case's Stainless" Both Sargent and Ferguson have '40-'52 which doesn't make sense considering we're in the XX era by then which has it's own stainless tang stamp. (see my photos).

Reguarding your early post: I am well aware of it! In fact I've studied your Tested ERA single bladed 61093 liner-lock a bunch of times and I am convinced it's factory produced and not a mod at all. I'll leave it at that rather than hijack my own post to go off on what would be a longer tangent than the one I'm on here. But I'd be happy to share my thoughts elsewhere. thanks for sharing.

Tom, I included a photo of the shields from in top to bottom order: TestedXX, XX, XXUSA. I agree, the shield looks like a USA shield. I'm going with everything being Tested Era but the covers and shield because the Tested 095 Frames as you know are smaller by 1/8" and narrower overall. Thanks for sharing!

Also, I have seen a bunch of Tested Era --2095s and I don't recall any of them having bone covers. So that might be the biggest red flag.

--Robo

[Robo]

Whoever work on the knife put the blades in opposite from my knife

Yours is a 62093. The Knife in question is a 62095 and you are correct-- the blades on the liner locking --2093s are the opposite of the non-liner-locking
--2095s. This is how Case differenciated them at the time--by different pattern numbers-- although the are both made on the same size 095 frame which is 1/8th inch shorter than the regular 61093 single blade tickler/toothpick. The 095 is also thinner and narrower, with a slender Hi-pull long clip blade. Case's use of the pattern numbers for the toothpicks in both the Tested Era and the &Sons and Bradford Eras can be confusing as hell. But I've studied the topic for months now (I really need to find a hobby!) and can speak of the mysteries with some confidence. Literally EVERYONE gets it wrong and it's because Case gets it wrong in their Catologs.

[jlw257]

Whoever work on the knife put the blades in opposite from my knife

Yours is a 62093. The Knife in question is a 62095 and you are correct-- the blades on the liner locking --2093s are the opposite of the non-liner-locking
--2095s. This is how Case differenciated them at the time--by different pattern numbers-- although the are both made on the same size 095 frame which is 1/8th inch shorter than the regular 61093 single blade tickler/toothpick. The 095 is also thinner and narrower, with a slender Hi-pull long clip blade. Case's use of the pattern numbers for the toothpicks in both the Tested Era and the &Sons and Bradford Eras can be confusing as hell. But I've studied the topic for months now (I really need to find a hobby!) and can speak of the mysteries with some confidence. Literally EVERYONE gets it wrong and it's because Case gets it wrong in their Catologs.

Thank you, I’m always learning

[knifeaholic]

Case never made a 62095. 62093, yes, 62098, yes, but 62095, no. That one looks to have authentic blades, handles are replacements. Most likely a 32095 where the handles self destructed and was cleaned/buffed and rehandled.

[Robo]

Case never made a 62095. 62093, yes, 62098, yes, but 62095, no. That one looks to have authentic blades, handles are replacements. Most likely a 32095 where the handles self destructed and was cleaned/buffed and rehandled.

Case Closed!!!!

[gsmith7158]

Robot that knife looks like a later production knife. The stamp itself is noted in some charts as 1916-20. Interestingly enough a knife similar to that is what led me to AAPK. You might find this thread of interest.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=47082

Greg, 7634 post later and now you are something of an expert! And you can still be funny.

Well doglegg, thanks for the compliments. I'm still working on the expert part and I've always thought that it never hurts to inject a little humour in to most situations. I do hope Ray didn't take that the wrong way about me going down to Texas and buying that rock and that weird place.

[kootenay joe]

This is a difficult thread to fully understand for a non Case collector. Following up on my earlier post, when did Case introduce stainless steel blades ? and which were the first patterns to have SS blades ?
kj

[Robo]

This is a difficult thread to fully understand for a non Case collector. Following up on my earlier post, when did Case introduce stainless steel blades ? and which were the first patterns to have SS blades ?
kj

KJ, It's difficult because we're throwing pattern numbers around that are so close that when someone suddenly shows up and throws in a different digit minds get blown! But in conclusion: a number of elements made it clear that this knife was not a minty 62095 pattern Fishing knife--the most obvious being Case didn't make this pattern with bone handles. The other important thing we pointed out was that Case didn't start making the two bladed Fishing pattern until the Tested XX era. So this knife couldn't be "Pre 1920" like the seller said it was. Hope that helps clear all that up.

As Far as the use of stainless steel goes I have to deffer to someone who knows more about it. But your hunch that this knife couldn't be pre 1920 because it had stainless blades is correct, and yet another important point for the edification of those seeking help with fakes and remakes being passed off as the real thing--so thanks for that.

You also mentioned other companies having trouble with stainless early on. I know that to be true Queen, for instance had to call their stainless "Queen Steel" because even after the bugs were worked out, the knife buying public had a distrust of the new fangled material. Phiffer says in the Case Collector's Guide that Case didn't always call their stainless, stainless. None of my Tested era Fishing knives say "Case's Stainless" except the "Sea Beast" but it's obvious they all have stainless blades. This may be at least part of the reason. So, yes, starting around the 20's Case began dabbling in stainless, but mostly just with fishing knives, as well as a couple pen knives. If you can get your hands on the case collectors guide--there's a pdf of an early edition you used to be able to get by searching "Collecting Case Knives, Identification and Price Guide" --Steve Pfeiffer, there's a chapter on Stainless V. Carbon steel. that would fill in the big gaps here for you. Thanks for your input!

[kootenay joe]

Thanks Robo. What confused me was that there would be any discussion of the 'finer points' when the claim "Pre 1920 Case's Stainless" is obviously incorrect, so if knife has pre 1920 markings and stainless blades it has to be a 'fake'.
I have Steve's book but was too lazy or busy to find the book and locate the info. Your explanation of the 'finer points' is a helpful summary. Thank you for the help.
kj

[WillyCamaro]

How come old sportscolbs keeps on listing these rehandles? He seems to be quite the topic around these parts

[gsmith7158]

Here is an interesting column about the discovery of Stainless Steel and subsequent use in the cutlery industry in Sheffield, England. Circa 1913
https://www.bssa.org.uk/about_stainless_steel.php?id=31

[kootenay joe]

There were many people working on making steel resistant to erosion & corrosion as explained in the link above. First use by the Jos. Rodgers & Sons i read was in about 1919 which was a few years ahead of other British knife manufacturers. It was not until mid to late 1920's that stainless steel blades became regular production, no longer a 'specialty' item.
kj

[Robo]

Here's my message to Sports Colbs. KJ,--dang!-- I left out the stainless steel proof that this wasn't a pre-1920s folder. You are absolutely correct in saying this is the smoking gun and I should have told him as much. That said, I think he'll get the point either way. Who know's if he'll act on it. Frankly, I didn't know he has been selling other re-handled folders. I always give the seller the benifit of the doubt when I'm calling them out on an inaccurately listed knife; and I try to be as non-confrontational as possible because they may not know they are selling a fake or a re-handle or parts knife either. I don't like doing it in the first place because I really don't like confrontation. I do it because I've been ripped off a number of times and hate the feeling enough to do my part in at least trying to see that others don't have to experience it.

I thank you all for your input. --Robo


New message to: sportcolbs
Hi, This is a nice knife but it's been listed improperly. It is a Case Texted XX Era --2095 pattern Fishing knife that has been re-handled at some point. I left the first digit of the pattern number out because we'll never know if it was waterfall, candy stripe, or Xmas tree out of the factory. But we can say for sure that this pattern was never made with bone handles. The fact that there is no pattern number on the back of the main blade tang is further proof that this is a Tested XX era (1920-1940) and not pre tested era folding knife. Case stopped putting pattern numbers on their knives durring that era. Please take this as a friendly heads-up. You have always sold quality merchandise in your store and I have purchased from you before. My concern is historical accuracy. I collect this pattern and you'd be surprised how inacurately it is represented not only on Ebay, but in the collecting community at large. Best--Rob C.

[kootenay joe]

Rob, this seller knows knives well and has been wheeling and dealing in them for years. At times he plays a little dumb, pretending to not notice or not know the knife has been altered. But he does post good pictures. He does not try to hide features of a knife. He is a very hard working guy, sometimes with over 250 listings per week. And he works alone. I think some of the listing 'sloppiness' is because he is too tired to post anything except what is marked on the knife.
Some knifer guys don't like him at all. I do because he is not one of the creators of fakes. He also gets some excellent very collectible vintage knives and sometimes they sell low. To shop sportcolbs you do better if you have some knife experience and make your own assessment based on the pictures. Don't go by what he says. If you get a knife you don't like, send it back, refund, no hassle and you will have learned something about how to better 'read the knife'.
I sold Bill a bunch of vintage knives and a bunch of Schrades. He paid me a good price, more than i expected. He auctioned them and made some profit but not a lot for all the work and expense involved.
kj

[knifeaholic]

Here's my message to Sports Colbs. KJ,--dang!-- I left out the stainless steel proof that this wasn't a pre-1920s folder. You are absolutely correct in saying this is the smoking gun and I should have told him as much. That said, I think he'll get the point either way. Who know's if he'll act on it. Frankly, I didn't know he has been selling other re-handled folders. I always give the seller the benifit of the doubt when I'm calling them out on an inaccurately listed knife; and I try to be as non-confrontational as possible because they may not know they are selling a fake or a re-handle or parts knife either. I don't like doing it in the first place because I really don't like confrontation. I do it because I've been ripped off a number of times and hate the feeling enough to do my part in at least trying to see that others don't have to experience it.

I thank you all for your input. --Robo


New message to: sportcolbs
Hi, This is a nice knife but it's been listed improperly. It is a Case Texted XX Era --2095 pattern Fishing knife that has been re-handled at some point. I left the first digit of the pattern number out because we'll never know if it was waterfall, candy stripe, or Xmas tree out of the factory. But we can say for sure that this pattern was never made with bone handles. The fact that there is no pattern number on the back of the main blade tang is further proof that this is a Tested XX era (1920-1940) and not pre tested era folding knife. Case stopped putting pattern numbers on their knives durring that era. Please take this as a friendly heads-up. You have always sold quality merchandise in your store and I have purchased from you before. My concern is historical accuracy. I collect this pattern and you'd be surprised how inacurately it is represented not only on Ebay, but in the collecting community at large. Best--Rob C.

Just for the record, Case never made any fish knives with waterfall, candy stripe, or christmas tree handles. Yes, you will see them, they have been rehandled.

The only handles used on authentic older Case fish knives were yellow, imitation onyx, and green bone (green bone was only used on the 93 and 98).

So many yellow handled fish knives have degraded handles that many were rehandled in modern waterfall, christmas tree, bone, and candy stripe.

[Robo]

"Just for the record, Case never made any fish knives with waterfall, candy stripe, or christmas tree handles. Yes, you will see them, they have been rehandled.

The only handles used on authentic older Case fish knives were yellow, imitation onyx, and green bone (green bone was only used on the 93 and 98).

So many yellow handled fish knives have degraded handles that many were rehandled in modern waterfall, christmas tree, bone, and candy stripe."

Thanks, Steve, That explains the pretty awful candy stripe handles on a Tested --2093 I purchased a while back. I rationalized one of the crew must have been having a bad day when he hafted those, But I never really believed myself.


Thanks KJ. I agree it's hard to argue the wisdom of "caveat emptor".

[WillyCamaro]

Thank you Roland for correcting us and me
It's like anything else in life, you better know what you are getting into first before taking the leap.

[zp4ja]

Bear with me all as I am a simple man where integrity is paramount to my values but possible I am missing something here...

This knife has been at the very least deemed re-handled and not represented as such by what may be characterized as an unscrupulous seller to some, myself included. I base this on historical reference here in this sub forum. Never have I personally dealt with this seller.
I feel pretty confident in my 7 years as a member here that the purpose of this forum is to inform others of cobbled, reworked, re-handled, counterfeit or otherwise any knife that is not original as it was from the factory.
Additionally, we all or most of us, give a pass to a seller whom has no idea a knife fits that aforementioned criteria I stated in the previous paragraph if they are doing their best and just lack the "knife knowledge". Especially if they relist description or take knife off sale block when politely notified. These people have integrity.
That said, someone whom has knife knowledge and knowingly omits facts for the almighty dollar has zero integrity.

So based on some comments in this post, let me see if I have this straight..,

1. Not the first time this sellers integrity has been brought up regarding LACK OF "full known disclosure" on a knife that has been cobbled, reworked, re-handled, counterfeit or otherwise any knife that is not original as it was from the factory.
2. "This seller knows knives well and has been wheeling and dealing in them for years. At times he plays a little dumb, pretending to not notice or not know the knife has been altered. But he does post good pictures."
3. Has a good return policy if you have enough knowledge to realize he did not fully disclose exactly what he knew that said knife for sale has been cobbled, reworked, re-handled, counterfeit or otherwise any knife that is not original as it was from the factory.
4. He has good knives for sale you just have to filter through all the junk. Not a direct quote but certainly implied on numerous posts regarding this seller.
5. "Hard to argue the wisdom of "caveat emptor". Sure I get that personally but does zero good for a upcoming collector interested in the hobby we all love that gets burned and stops collecting based on that.

Here is my question...

Why even have a counterfeit forum if we articulate and those comments tolerate such behavior? Might as well tell un-knowledgeable new collectors they are on their own.
Yes, they get some knowledge on non original knives assuming they visit this forum. Maybe the name of the forum should be changed to "Caveat Emptor"

To each his own but personally I see this as giving this guy a pass on knowingly selling off knives known not to be factory original without full disclosure for the almighty dollar. As you can tell, my integrity and the integrity of those I do business with is paramount to me.

I personally don't care whom it is or whether he has a grail or great knives I want. Maybe I am old fashioned but I personally can't the past the lack of integrity for the sake of an material object such as a knife. It is just a knife. Do as you wish but maybe if others boycotted buying real knives for any seller, especially ones that know better, they might get the hint that they will not get his business until integrity is restored (if that is possible) by doing the right thing.

To each his own. Do as you wish of course. My 200 cents.

Jerry

[peanut740]

Jerry,I agree.Some novice,who doesn't know anything about knives,get ranked over the coals quite often on this forum. Then some give Bill Swan,aka sporty gets a pass for all kinds of reasons.He has over 72000 feedbacks,which means he has likely sold well over 100000 knives.He doesn't care if a knife is good or bad.He just sells them.Him playing dumb,really doesn't work for me either.