Buyer beware - old Ulster Scout knife

[ronfish]

At first glance, this is a beauty. Then I noticed there was no rear tang stamp, the bail is wrong and it looks like it has been apart. Then I zoomed in! Yikes!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/352347588133

The knife:

Pin obviously manipulated:

Wrong bail, smooshed bolster:

No rear tang stamp:

[Old Folder]

Good eye Ron
How can this seller sleep at night?

[Gunsil]

Seller is Bill Claussen, one of the older and well respected knife dealers in the country. He's been buying/trading/selling knives longer than many here have been around. Why not point these things out to him and see what he has to say? The only thing I see funny is that there seems to have been grinding on the back of the main blade where a number may have been. The pivot pin looks OK to me.

[ScoutKnives]

Good pick up Ron .
The Knife is a hot mess , lots of things wrong ...
Incorrect Bail , shield not inlaid , center back spring pin is very rough and with what looks like glue , no pattern number , both bolster pins are bad .
Looks like it was put together from leftover
Parts after WWII .

[OLDE CUTLER]

At first glance, this is a beauty. Then I noticed there was no rear tang stamp, the bail is wrong and it looks like it has been apart. Then I zoomed in! Yikes!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/352347588133

The knife:
CD455921-9DB6-4DE8-AFFF-56368DAF1E51.png

Pin obviously manipulated:
19BBDA13-6030-42EC-BC2F-24CBD34B6350.png

Wrong bail, smooshed bolster:
DC3047D4-0028-4F88-900A-A23C8AE34E22.png

AA4BC954-DC68-4FBB-ACAD-86D414778A31.png

5FCFF562-0171-4320-B7C0-4F1D2F51B5C7.png

No rear tang stamp:
AFDF9478-60C2-43D3-BAF7-51B5876E0969.png

What would be stamped on the rear of the main blade tang?

[ronfish]

The pattern number 1502.

By the way, my remarks are specific to the knife and observations based on mint artifacts in my collection and dozens of these knives that I have seen firsthand. I don’t know the seller and have no comments to share relating to his ethics or how he came by the knife.

[kootenay joe]

As is stated above, Bill Claussen is one of the most senior and most experienced knife collectors/dealers in USA today. "Sheffield Exhibition Knives" is his book and he has owned many of the knives pictured.
I don't think he looks at the knives he lists with a seriously critical eye. He posts good pictures and lets the viewers decide. He would always accept a return, no reasons needed.
Although this Boker is not right, he does regularly list Great knives because he has connections with many of the senior collectors.
I have bought at least 100 knives from Bill and sold him a few as well. All were 100% positive transactions.
kj

[OLDE CUTLER]

The pattern number 1502.

By the way, my remarks are specific to the knife and observations based on mint artifacts in my collection and dozens of these knives that I have seen firsthand. I don’t know the seller and have no comments to share relating to his ethics or how he came by the knife.

The reason I asked was that I have a knife like the one pictured and mine is not stamped on the back of the master blade either. I agree that the bail on the OP knife is different and other signs such as the color change down in the recess for the can opener stud seem to indicate that it may have been apart and rehandled.

[ea42]

I was wondering about that center scale, I thought the scout knives has a brass center with jimping. I could be wrong as I know the ones I've seen did but not sure if it was the same over the span of years that they made them (the early ones that is). Bail is definitely wrong for the scout. He does have nice knives in general but oftentimes they seem overly cleaned.

Eric

[ronfish]

Currently at $255......DOH!

[Landersknives]

I have a ulster knife similar to the above mentioned knife. The one I am showing pictures of is one I picked up for parts. The reason I am showing it is because it has no pattern number on the back of the blade either. I can’t use the blade anyway because of the large chunk taken out of it. I would like to know if my knife is counterfeit also. Does this knife have to have the pattern stamped on the back of the main blade to be considered authentic? I would just like to know you fellers are way more versed in these things than I am. Thanks for your replies and your help in my education.

[OLDE CUTLER]

I was wondering about that center scale, I thought the scout knives has a brass center with jimping. I could be wrong as I know the ones I've seen did but not sure if it was the same over the span of years that they made them (the early ones that is). Bail is definitely wrong for the scout. He does have nice knives in general but oftentimes they seem overly cleaned.

Eric

Pictures of mine. As I mentioned, it does not have the 1502 stamped on the rear of the tang on the master blade, and does not have a brass center. Mine shows no evidence of ever being apart, and has all the blade etch worn off. I think the original post knife has been apart and probably rehandled, the bail replaced with a similar but not exact replacement and has been cleaned. Has the blade possibly been re etched?

[ea42]

From what I've seen I have a feeling those scouts were made with both kinds of centers, depending on what year they were made. That of course is a guess though, we really need a scout knife expert to answer that correctly. As far as the lack of a model number on the blade, that I'm not sure of. I do recall some years ago in conversation with other collectors that the number was a requirement for them to even consider buying one. I think it might have been on Levine's forum.

Eric

[KAW]

I believe I just discovered the reason for acquiring a beat up, worn out knife.
No one in their right mind would make such a counterfeit... so it's got to be genuine...

[ronfish]

No single factor was evaluated individually to determine the authenticity of this knife; rather it was the accumulation of factors. There are other details that i didn't even highlight. Why is the back tang unfinished and rough in appearance? Why don't the backsprings and center spacer fit tightly together? How did the pin for the main blade become separated from the bolster if it is "unused"? That would take some doing and the blade would show the effects. I stand by my evaluation and would expect that a first hand examination would make my observations even more apparent. This knife is not "mint" or all original. The parts may be legit but they didn't all originally come on this knife.

On another note, I agree that there are lots of variations depending on when the knife was made (especially pre/post war). I have opened up NOS display cartons of 6-12 boy scout knives and found variations inside (scale color variations, paperwork variations, imperfect etches, blade shape variations, etc). After all, the older school knives were largely hand made, hand finished and/or assembled. You would expect there to be some imperfections right? Of course. However, would a knife with these telltale signs of tampering and poor workmanship have left the workbench of the oldschool craftsman?

I dare say.....NOPE.

[bestgear]

we really need a scout knife expert to answer that correctly

IMHO ronfish IS a Scout knife expert, his collection and devotion to the genre is blue ribbon, his word and evaluation is as good as gold for me.

[ea42]

Tom, I'd completely lost track of the fact that Ron was the OP, sorry about that Ron!
Sometimes you get so caught up in a thread or post that you forget who's participating.

Eric

[ronfish]

No worries, I enjoy the passion and dialogue around knife collecting. We all have our niches and scout knife collecting and research has definitely been my obsession!

As always Tom, I appreciate your kind words and endorsement. I see you received my check.

[gsmith7158]

Anybody that's got an etched bone handled Camillus 1047 in mint condition like ronfish does has got to be an expert in my book! Come on Ron show us that thing one more time.

[bestgear]

Actually Ron it's been a moment since you shared a picture of your curio cabinet......give it up old friend! BTW - the check bounced, you owe me a $25 service fee

[ronfish]

Anybody that's got an etched bone handled Camillus 1047 in mint condition like ronfish does has got to be an expert in my book! Come on Ron show us that thing one more time.

Haha I will take it. My wife would concur but replace expert with addict.

[ronfish]

Here ya go Tom:

[peanut740]

Impressive Ron!

[bestgear]

Looks like Ron has cornered the market on Official Scout knives.....most impressive......you should be proud!

[ea42]

Wow, just amazing! THAT took a lot of work and searching, fantastic display Ron.

Eric