How does ebay let fakes sell ???

A place to discuss & share pictures of counterfeit knives. Please be sure to alert the AAPK community if you spot one. Also make sure to ask questions if you are not certain about the authenticity of a knife you are considering buying or selling. There are plenty of great people here willing to help.
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just bob
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Re: How does ebay let fakes sell ???

Post by just bob »

Spyderco sued Ebay this summer and I heard they settled earlier this month. If I understand correctly, it was because Ebay wasn't responsive to removing auctions flagged by the manufacturer. The manufacturer was checking. I don't think Ebay checks.


Is there any documentation on this settlement? I'd be interested in knowing about that. It seems to me that if ebay did settle they would have a long line of other manufactures lined up with their hands out. Pocket knives are a very small part of the counterfeit problem on ebay. I would guess they would try and keep it tied up in the courts for years and not settle until there was a judgement against them? Anyone that has certain info please post.
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Re: How does ebay let fakes sell ???

Post by americanedgetech »

https://www.google.com/search?ei=MEsbWo ... AeW-ReOpCY

Just one article... http://247wallst.com/technology-3/2017/ ... ringement/

"Knife Maker Sues eBay Over Trademark Infringement
By Paul Ausick July 27, 2017 1:00 pm EST
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eBay Inc. (NASDAQ: EBAY) has gotten in hot water in the past for failing to stop the sale of counterfeit products that infringe on legal patents or trademarks. Last week knife maker Spyderco filed a lawsuit in a Colorado federal court seeking injunctive and monetary relief from the online auction site for “acts of counterfeiting, trademark infringement, and unfair competition” under both federal and Colorado state law.

The company claims that eBay has ignored reports by Spyderco and other companies of “thousands of intentional and unlawful listings … by more than three hundred [eBay] registered sellers … of obvious counterfeit Spyderco products ….”

Since 2009, according to the court filing, Spyderco has sent eBay more than 500 notices of infringement by at least 300 registered eBay sellers identifying “thousands” of Spyderco products. The company alleges that “eBay intentionally turns a blind eye to the infringing activity.”

According to the court filing:

eBay expressly acknowledges and agrees that unauthorized copies or Fake Products that are advertised and appear on its website may infringe on the manufacturer’s trademark. … Notwithstanding eBay’s knowledge of these claims and practices by its sellers, and the fact that “[eBay has] received significant media attention relating to the listing or sale of illegal or counterfeit goods, which could damage [its] reputation, diminish the value of [its] brand names, and make users reluctant to use [eBay’s] products and services,” eBay publicly admits that it has resisted modifying its business practices because such changes could possibly increase costs, lower revenue, make eBay’s websites and mobile platforms less convenient to customers, and require eBay to spend substantial resources to take additional protective measures or discontinue certain service offerings in order to combat these known and acknowledged user practices.

According to The Counterfeit Report, eBay last month settled another counterfeit case without revealing the settlement terms. The editor noted, “The lawsuits are likely little more than an annoyance to the e-commerce giant, who makes billions in profit, in part from each sale of counterfeit items.”
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Re: How does ebay let fakes sell ???

Post by just bob »

Good information. Does anyone else think there is a difference between a counterfeit and a knock off? It would be much easier to go after a Chinese company selling knock off Spyderco knives than a country bumpkin selling counterfeit Case knives. I don't know how they could stop that completely?
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Re: How does ebay let fakes sell ???

Post by bestgear »

In part, from Microtech's website:

"The result of our efforts is extraordinary quality as well as dependable knives, which are instantly recognizable. MICROTECH knives are, accordingly, highly desired by persons who value the best available knife. This incentivizes counterfeiters. It is the same reason why sought-after items like Rolex watches and designer handbags are widely counterfeited.

Unfortunately, persons exist who are willing to perpetrate a fraud by using the MICROTECH name along with our other registered Trademarks. Invariably, they offer knives made with inferior materials and low-quality parts. The fit and finish of these knives is sloppy and lacking quality. The components are not purposed for integrated function. The blade does not have, and will not hold, a keen and serviceable cutting edge. The knife will quickly fail. The counterfeiter has no reason to build a serviceable — much less a high-quality — knife. The counterfeiter’s name is not on the knife and he is going to disavow the knife when it fails. The goal of the counterfeiter is superficial imitation that will merely deceive a purchaser.

Many sources, especially internet-based, offer MICROTECH “clones”. Do not be misled. It is a misuse of the word “clone” in an attempt to soften the fraud. In this context, clone is a euphemism for counterfeit. Again, no quality, no performance.

Microtech Knives, Inc. has not licensed any entity to use its trademarks, designs, or other intellectual property. Those involved in the importation and commerce, of counterfeit knives, are violating the law enacted to protect you, the consumer, and MICROTECH.

We suggest a modicum of due diligence before you buy a Microtech knife. Hopefully, you are on this website before you exchanged good money for an unworthy knife. Examine the MICROTECH website and catalog. Determine whether you are dealing with a reputable seller, or an imposter.

Be very skeptical of knives sold:

On such sites as DHgate.com; ioffer.com; aliexpress.com
At flea markets, swap meets, and other such casual situations
By street vendors – – in the US and abroad
By “online stores” that have no identity beyond a web address
At prices which are a small fraction of the MICROTECH MSRP
Under circumstances too good to be true"

I agree that the best defense will come from the manufacturers at the consumers expense, been that way since the US Patent Office issued the first patent on July 31, 1790.
Tom
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Re: How does ebay let fakes sell ???

Post by americanedgetech »

I discussed this on BF once.
What it comes down to is the expense of international law suits.
Most items are nothing more than intellectual property, some are copy righted, some are trademarked, some are patented, and some are Internationally patented.
I listed them in order of of their legal protection. What is fact is the international patent can be sued over in any complying country. You do not have to file suit in China to make a claim but you have to serve notice in China, and you have to know whom to serve notice to.
Say you file in the U.S. on a China based company. They have no legal compulsion to come here to defend.
They dissolve the company, and start under a new company name.

There is a web site that sells "REAL COUNTERFEIT" knives. MicroTech' BenchMade, Spydee, ProTech, name a brand... They come in strikingly similar packaging including every item down to the C.O.A. where applicable.
They sell for 20-30-50 bucks each or much less if you buy bulk.
Point here is the company is constantly changing names. One day it's zxc, and the next it's hfg. The only constant is the distributer, and they get away with selling them the same way chemical manufacturers get away with selling "Research chemicals". There are loop holes that allow the importation of counterfeit items as long as they are not "Intended" for re-sale. Things like Movie Props are exempt. Educational purpose is exempt.

Bottom line is it is too expensive to get international patents, and keep them in the first place. Flowing down the line in protection, none of the other legal protections are enforceable in foreign countries.
Even further down is the fact that almost all knives will not qualify for any design protection, only a trade mark.

Knock off's, counterfeits, clones, copies, whatever you call them are a fact in any business. They always have been, and always will be.
The ONLY protection is to out produce the copies, and keep them affordable from the beginning. No one copies a 12 dollar knife.
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Re: How does ebay let fakes sell ???

Post by KnifeSlinger#81 »

I have seen fake spyderco and microtech knives at gun shows, for the full retail price of the real ones. What a shame, and knives are a minority in the world of fake products. The amount of fakes on the world market is staggering.

I read a good article about that a year ago, I wish I could find it now.
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Re: How does ebay let fakes sell ???

Post by RobesonsRme.com »

The president and federal government could clean this up in a week.

Trump to Xi, "Hey Xi, my friend. Just a quick call. Don't have time to chat nor argue. Just to let you know, I'm going to freeze all Chinese imports into our great country and they will stay frozen until you and your government put a stop to all this counterfeiting of our quality American products by your people. Call me when you have it under control."

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Re: How does ebay let fakes sell ???

Post by americanedgetech »

Charlie, I did laugh out loud, and for one moment I thought "What a GREAT idea!"

Then I remembered that the U.S. owes China $1.2 trillion as of August 2017. We sold them treasury notes to recover from what Wall Street, and the banking industry did to us with their fake mortgages, and hedge funds.
Set the dice on craps when no one is looking, cover the dice, advertise a no lose game because you sell insurance bets.. A new home to anyone/everyone if the dice are on seven. Craps. We all lose
We tell them (China) to keep their junk, and they call in the note. Bankrupt in one phone call. We lose again.

They hold all the cards Charlie. We stacked the deck, and dealt the wrong hand to the wrong player. ::nod::
All we can do at this point is watch the game continue, and hope someone else grabs their attention before everything is gone.

Worst case? We as Americans can borrow the money from John Rothschild (AKA our Federal Reserve).

The only way out is to out produce the people that are flooding us with merchandise but we want too much as individuals. We want time off, we want cheap items, we want, we want, we want...
It's a lost battle Charlie. It's over. ::td::
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Re: How does ebay let fakes sell ???

Post by supratentorial »

RobesonsRme.com wrote:The president and federal government could clean this up in a week.

Trump to Xi, "Hey Xi, my friend. Just a quick call. Don't have time to chat nor argue. Just to let you know, I'm going to freeze all Chinese imports into our great country and they will stay frozen until you and your government put a stop to all this counterfeiting of our quality American products by your people. Call me when you have it under control."

Charlie Noyes
Freezing all imports from China would freeze Spyderco's legitimate products as well as the knock offs. It would also freeze imports of computers, clothing, etc. We have become so dependent on manufacturing in China that a freeze would hurt the US more than China.

Noone would make fakes if people didn't buy them. And US companies would keep manufacturing in the USA if people didn't buy imports. In our little hobby, it would seem that support for the American cutlery tradition should be a given. But it's not. Look at the support for Rough Rider et al here and elsewhere on the internet. Low price imports put Schrade out of business and now the Schrade name is stamped on the imports that put them out of business. You'd think that would make folks angry. But instead you get attacked if you don't praise the cheap imports. Consumers are driving the production of knock offs and off shore manufacturing.
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Re: How does ebay let fakes sell ???

Post by Mumbleypeg »

supratentorial wrote:
Noone would make fakes if people didn't buy them. In our little hobby, it would seem that support for the American cutlery tradition should be a given. But it's not. Look at the support for Rough Rider et al here and elsewhere on the internet. Low price imports put Schrade out of business and now the Schrade name is stamped on the imports that put them out of business. You'd think that would make folks angry. But instead you get attacked if you don't praise the cheap imports.
Bingo!

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Re: How does ebay let fakes sell ???

Post by just bob »

What is the situation in Europe and elsewhere? Has China flooded those markets with knock off knives as well? Has any country halted the flow? The sheer number of China knives in the USA is staggering. Here in Podunk, Indiana you can't go to an auction or flea market without seeing scads of them. They don't bring much and sometimes you wonder how anyone can make a new knife, put it in a box, export it thousands of miles and sell it for a quarter? There was discussion at the last knife club meeting that the Rough Rider knife is becoming collectable - heaven help us.
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Re: How does ebay let fakes sell ???

Post by americanedgetech »

supratentorial wrote:
RobesonsRme.com wrote:The president and federal government could clean this up in a week.

Trump to Xi, "Hey Xi, my friend. Just a quick call. Don't have time to chat nor argue. Just to let you know, I'm going to freeze all Chinese imports into our great country and they will stay frozen until you and your government put a stop to all this counterfeiting of our quality American products by your people. Call me when you have it under control."

Charlie Noyes
Freezing all imports from China would freeze Spyderco's legitimate products as well as the knock offs. It would also freeze imports of computers, clothing, etc. We have become so dependent on manufacturing in China that a freeze would hurt the US more than China.

Noone would make fakes if people didn't buy them. And US companies would keep manufacturing in the USA if people didn't buy imports. In our little hobby, it would seem that support for the American cutlery tradition should be a given. But it's not. Look at the support for Rough Rider et al here and elsewhere on the internet. Low price imports put Schrade out of business and now the Schrade name is stamped on the imports that put them out of business. You'd think that would make folks angry. But instead you get attacked if you don't praise the cheap imports. Consumers are driving the production of knock offs and off shore manufacturing.
I agree up to one point... China didn't put Schrade out of business, Management, American workers, and American suppliers did!
Schrade could not afford to stay in business and make a profit. This had nothing to do with any other country but our own..

If your idea were correct then Case, Gerber, and all of the others would be gone as well. Bottom line is America created Americas manufacturing problems. No one else did.
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Re: How does ebay let fakes sell ???

Post by supratentorial »

I am worried about the few companies still manufacturing knives in the USA. CSC is gone. I suspect Queen is at risk. I'd hate to see them go under and become another name stamped on imports like Schrade. On another forum, Case regularly gets beaten down in nearly every discussion about Rough Rider. The descriptions of the RR knives is inflated and faults get dismissed because they are cheap. You'd think people were describing $100 knives instead of the knife equivalent of costume jewelry made by Rough Rider.

Foreign competition is widely believed to have contributed to the demise of Schrade. Foreign competition is not a new problem. 100+ years ago, it was competition with England and Germany. Tariffs are the only reason that the American cutlery industry survived. If you are a history buff and haven't read them yet, I recommend downloading the hearings. Very interesting history and it's fun to read actual dialog from some of the most famous names in US cutlery history. Some fun facts too... like they used the acronym "PMS" for polished mark side --hahaha. I think the full text can be found on Google Books.
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Re: How does ebay let fakes sell ???

Post by EagleEyeTwo »

As a long time eBay seller, I know from experience eBay will remove listings that are fake if you report it. I've had lawyers from Boker Spyderpco, Case, Zippo just to name a few actually report items to eBay and also email or call me to say someone had reported a fake even if it was listed as a clone. I've been selling on eBay for over 17 years ,it sure has changed some better some worse. Kinda like a flea market on your computer. The lack of being able to hold the knife in your hand is the biggest drawback to eBay.BTW a Great Website and forums.
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Re: How does ebay let fakes sell ???

Post by Mumbleypeg »

EagleEyeTwo wrote:As a long time eBay seller, I know from experience eBay will remove listings that are fake if you report it.
Wish it was that simple. My experience does not agree. I have reported one particular eBay seller numerous times for listing obvious fakes. Not clones. The seller is a prolific eBay seller who continually shows up here on AAPK in the "Counterfeit" subforum. I have yet to receive any response whatsoever from eBay, nor have any of the reported listings been removed or altered.

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Re: How does ebay let fakes sell ???

Post by EagleEyeTwo »

You have to stay after them in that instance or call the company that is being copied and their lawyers will take care of it.
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Re: How does ebay let fakes sell ???

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I think there is a huge difference between knock offs and counterfeits and in this forum they are treated as the same. I was channel surfing the other day and happened upon this program about knock offs on Nat Geo. They don't specifically focus on knives but show the lengths Chinese manufactures go to in order to get their products into the USA and the ways the various agencies are working to stop them. An hour well spent. Maybe you can watch it from this link or get more information. If you have Comcast I'm sure it's on demand.

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/u ... 1-2091360/
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Re: How does ebay let fakes sell ???

Post by supratentorial »

just bob wrote:I think there is a huge difference between knock offs and counterfeits and in this forum they are treated as the same. I was channel surfing the other day and happened upon this program about knock offs on Nat Geo. They don't specifically focus on knives but show the lengths Chinese manufactures go to in order to get their products into the USA and the ways the various agencies are working to stop them. An hour well spent. Maybe you can watch it from this link or get more information. If you have Comcast I'm sure it's on demand.

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/u ... 1-2091360/
I thought this caption was interesting. The street is more honest than Ebay! "These watches will either be sold on the streets as fake watches or sold on ebay as the real thing."
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Re: How does ebay let fakes sell ???

Post by Mumbleypeg »

supratentorial wrote:
just bob wrote:I think there is a huge difference between knock offs and counterfeits and in this forum they are treated as the same. I was channel surfing the other day and happened upon this program about knock offs on Nat Geo. They don't specifically focus on knives but show the lengths Chinese manufactures go to in order to get their products into the USA and the ways the various agencies are working to stop them. An hour well spent. Maybe you can watch it from this link or get more information. If you have Comcast I'm sure it's on demand.

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/u ... 1-2091360/
I thought this caption was interesting. The street is more honest than Ebay! "These watches will either be sold on the streets as fake watches or sold on ebay as the real thing."
Excellent point. I've posted about this before on another thread. Unless things have changed in the past 10 years or so many Asian countries (China, Korea, and others) have no copyright or patent laws and do not recognize, nor do they enforce, those of other countries. And they are masters at reverse engineering and copying, at least cosmetically, everything from electronics to consumer fashion goods. In major Asian cities you will find a flea market or bazaar-style marketplace, usually called the "Chinese Market", where knock-off goods are sold. Everything from famous branded clothing like Nautica, North Face, Columbia and Guess, to Coach and Dooney & Burke purses, and name-brand "Swiss" watches. Knock-off DVDs of first-run Hollywood movies (sometimes simultaneous with or before their U.S. theatrical release) and knock-off CDs by major musical artists. It is an industry there.

In general the merchandise looks good cosmetically but the actual quality is poor. The clothing is made of inferior quality, light weight materials. The leather goods will fade or the color rub off quickly. If you're lucky the watches may work for a month or two before quitting and the micro-thin plating will begin rubbing off in a few days (but you bought a "Rolex" for $25). :lol:

But at those same markets if you want to spend more you can get similar goods made with higher quality materials. Still knock-off goods but more likely to fool an unsuspecting buyer. For $100 you can get a "Rolex" with heavier plating and a reject Rado movement that might last a year before quitting. It will fool most anyone but a watch-maker.

The difference between that and eBay is the sellers they make no pretense that their merchandise is authentic. The buyers know full well they are buying knock-offs. But in neither case does the legitimate company get any return on their investments in R&D, intellectual property, or advertising.

Ken
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Re: How does ebay let fakes sell ???

Post by americanedgetech »

Look at it this way... 1000 people in a room, 400 of them are honest God fearing people, 200 are honest but hey, there's a fiver on the floor. 200 more try to be honest but take supplies home from work, almost daily. 150 are liars, 50 are thieves.
The numbers are wrong but the concept is correct. Now put 7 billion people in this example. (not the room :wink: )

Counterfeiting has been a human condition since man first thought of possessions or the concept of MINE vs OURS.

The problem is not the trinket but the species.

Do you know the joke where a fella is asked "What is your worst trait?"...
Fella says "I'm honest to a fault!"
First guy says... "I don't think that is a bad trait!"
Fella says "I really don't care what you think" ::tu::

People are the problem. Not all of us but enough of us. ::nod::
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Re: How does ebay let fakes sell ???

Post by Robo »

I notified e-bay about a fake Case 31095 pattern Fishing knife and they thanked me and politely asked me to not bug them anymore about it, that they would deal with the matter in due time. They said if I contacted them again it would only add to the time it would take for them to resolve the matter. In other words, chances are slim they are gonna deal with it at all. Nobody's gonna buy the knife anyway for the price this tool is selling it for. It does bug me a bit that anybody would spend 200.00 dollars worth of labor faking a knife that you can get for under $50.00 mint. I was thinking though that if AAPK members bombarded the fakers with messages calling them out and telling them that they were being scorned and mocked a legit and popular forum they would be shamed into pulling the fake. Just a thought.
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