How does ebay let fakes sell ???

[stagman]

I have seen saw many fakes on ebay, especially custom knives
Chris Reeve sebenza's for 58 .00 bucks
Thats a 425.00 buck knife from Chris
All china made of course...even says Idaho Made on em just like the real ones
how does this happen in a open market place like that with NO punishments,, or,,
they do not even make em end the auction

Will
http://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/stagman

[just bob]

A lot of info here

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=53401&p=588899#p588899

[Shearer]

I have seen saw many fakes on ebay, especially custom knives
Chris Reeve sebenza's for 58 .00 bucks
Thats a 425.00 buck knife from Chris
All china made of course...even says Idaho Made on em just like the real ones
how does this happen in a open market place like that with NO punishments,, or,,
they do not even make em end the auction

Will
http://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/stagman

If you look down under Item Specifics he has reproduction.
I agree with you it should be under the heading instead of somewhere you could miss it.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Chris-Reeve-Kn ... SwK~RaFvqc

Grant

[KnifeSlinger#81]

Because they make money on it.

[Dinadan]

I seen several instances here at AAPK where knowledgeable folks were puzzled about whether a knife was a fake or not. Ebay would need an expert or two on call to weed out the fakes. And then how many categories of stuff and how many experts wouId they need for everything? I guess Ebay could have a web site where folks could report fakes, but once again I have seen knives fingered as fakes here, that were later determined to be good. I do not see an easy solution, even supposing that Ebay actually wanted to do anything.

[stagman]

I see where it says clone...but doggone,,even when you look at the enlarged
pics it is stamped on knife Idaho Made...Chris Reeve paperwork and mark... as well
as the Reeve box,, when they say clone, they mean everything...
just does not seem right to be such a deceiver for profit !!!

Stag
http://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/stagman

[RobesonsRme.com]

Chris Reeves is the only person that could put a stop to that and then only for the knives that are copies of his work.

Charlie Noyes

[Shearer]

It looks like these Chris Reeve fakes have been around for several years.I found post on BF from 2011 .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaYpQ-9pS6Q
Grant

[supratentorial]

Spyderco sued Ebay this summer and I heard they settled earlier this month. If I understand correctly, it was because Ebay wasn't responsive to removing auctions flagged by the manufacturer. The manufacturer was checking. I don't think Ebay checks.

Ebay has deep pockets. Settlements are probably a drop in the bucket for them.. I don't know if much has changed. You can still find the clones on Ebay.... for example: https://www.ebay.com/itm/272931656016

[Gunsil]

EBay has a disclaimer that all descriptions and authenticity is up to the seller thereby relieving ebay of any legal problems with the selling of fakes. Like stated above, they really don't care since they make the same percentage on fake items as real ones. Back when eBay was a more friendly site one was able to contact other bidders and warn them they were bidding on a fake item, but eBay put the kibosh on this and I think it was sellers who pushed them to do so. Ebay was once a more friendly place to buy and sell on, now it is a lot less buyer oriented which to me is stupid because without buyers they would not exist. I see members here buying from sellers who constantly sell items which are not what they are advertised to be so I guess it doesn't matter much. One man's trash is another man's treasure.

[americanedgetech]

With the high dollar counterfeits (no disclaimer or statement that they are copies) I agree that FleaBay should be held responsible. It is illegal to import, manufacture, or sell counterfeit merchandise that is copy righted, trademarked or patented in the U.S.. Disclaimer or not FleaBay is providing the sales platform, and the advertisement of these items.

I realize it is a rabbit hole full of legal loopholes but if you provide a service that is allowing illegal acts to occur there should be no excuse such as "We are too large to monitor everything". Sounds like they stole that excuse from somewhere... But where?

[Gunsil]

Seems to me that you (AET) recently purchased a fake Joseph Rodgers knife made in India. Therefore you are perpetuating and encouraging the sale of fakes on ebay. You even said you were glad to have it. Can't really ride two horses at once.

[RobesonsRme.com]

Which federal agency is it that shows up at flea markets and confiscates all those fake Dooney & Burke purses?

Seems to me the same laws are being bent or broken on Ebay.

Charlie Noyes

[americanedgetech]

Seems to me that you (AET) recently purchased a fake Joseph Rodgers knife made in India. Therefore you are perpetuating and encouraging the sale of fakes on ebay. You even said you were glad to have it. Can't really ride two horses at once.

The difference there is I bought it AS a fake. At first I believed it was a different brand from No 6 Norfolk St (not a J Rodgers) but yes you are correct that it was represented as what it states it is. There was no mention of "Made in *****" in the listing.

I might be mistaken but I do not believe there was fraud or deceit on the part of the seller, and it took my research to find out what it was. These knives are well known in the knife community as early fakes, and yes I am happy to have it. If it were advertised as a Joseph Rodgers knife... that would be a different matter. I see no fraud in the deal I made.

The fraud I am reffering to in my earlier post is relating to the people that sell outright copies of knives (like the Sebenza or the Para II fakes that are out there without stating "Copy" or Clone" in the listing. AND many of those listings are asking real knife prices.

I understand, and accept your point as valid Gunsil. Perhaps it is because "I" bought that knife that I see it as a different set of circumstances.

Here is the original listing that I bought it from...
"I AM SELLING A FOLDING KNIFE ITS MARKED SHEFFIELD NO 6 BLADE STFR THE BLADE IS AROUND 5 INCHES LONG WITH LEATHER SHEATH . SOLD AS IS THANKS FOR LOOKING ."

"Vintage sheffield No. 6 Folding Knife with leather sheath 1930s? Or earlier"

I do not believe it was mis-represented but I do see how it could be mistaken because I had to research to discover what it actually is.
Food for thought tho Gunsil. Thanks for pointing it out.

[americanedgetech]

Which federal agency is it that shows up at flea markets and confiscates all those fake Dooney & Burke purses?

Seems to me the same laws are being bent or broken on Ebay.

Charlie Noyes

In the case of FleaBay, it is actually the FBI that investigates because it is on the internet, and that falls under Wire Fraud.

"wire fraud
nounUS
financial fraud involving the use of telecommunications or information technology."

"Last Published: 7/22/2016
The Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) investigates criminal counterfeiting, piracy, and other federal crimes. You can report suspicions concerning the manufacture or sale of counterfeit or pirated goods to the FBI by contacting your local FBI Office, or or calling (202) 324-3000 and asking to speak with the Duty Complaint Agent. If you suspect products for sale on the Internet are counterfeit or pirated, you can report your suspicions to the FBI Internet Fraud Complaint Center."

It is quite a serious offense, and if found culpable, FleaBay could cease to exist. Everything involved in the ACT of selling counterfeit merchandise is seizable under federal law. Including the CEO's (Devin Wenig) car(s)/home(s)

[just bob]

Spyderco sued Ebay this summer and I heard they settled earlier this month. If I understand correctly, it was because Ebay wasn't responsive to removing auctions flagged by the manufacturer. The manufacturer was checking. I don't think Ebay checks.


Is there any documentation on this settlement? I'd be interested in knowing about that. It seems to me that if ebay did settle they would have a long line of other manufactures lined up with their hands out. Pocket knives are a very small part of the counterfeit problem on ebay. I would guess they would try and keep it tied up in the courts for years and not settle until there was a judgement against them? Anyone that has certain info please post.

[americanedgetech]

https://www.google.com/search?ei=MEsbWo ... AeW-ReOpCY

Just one article... http://247wallst.com/technology-3/2017/ ... ringement/

"Knife Maker Sues eBay Over Trademark Infringement
By Paul Ausick July 27, 2017 1:00 pm EST
Print Email
inShare
2

eBay Inc. (NASDAQ: EBAY) has gotten in hot water in the past for failing to stop the sale of counterfeit products that infringe on legal patents or trademarks. Last week knife maker Spyderco filed a lawsuit in a Colorado federal court seeking injunctive and monetary relief from the online auction site for “acts of counterfeiting, trademark infringement, and unfair competition” under both federal and Colorado state law.

The company claims that eBay has ignored reports by Spyderco and other companies of “thousands of intentional and unlawful listings … by more than three hundred [eBay] registered sellers … of obvious counterfeit Spyderco products ….”

Since 2009, according to the court filing, Spyderco has sent eBay more than 500 notices of infringement by at least 300 registered eBay sellers identifying “thousands” of Spyderco products. The company alleges that “eBay intentionally turns a blind eye to the infringing activity.”

According to the court filing:

eBay expressly acknowledges and agrees that unauthorized copies or Fake Products that are advertised and appear on its website may infringe on the manufacturer’s trademark. … Notwithstanding eBay’s knowledge of these claims and practices by its sellers, and the fact that “[eBay has] received significant media attention relating to the listing or sale of illegal or counterfeit goods, which could damage [its] reputation, diminish the value of [its] brand names, and make users reluctant to use [eBay’s] products and services,” eBay publicly admits that it has resisted modifying its business practices because such changes could possibly increase costs, lower revenue, make eBay’s websites and mobile platforms less convenient to customers, and require eBay to spend substantial resources to take additional protective measures or discontinue certain service offerings in order to combat these known and acknowledged user practices.

According to The Counterfeit Report, eBay last month settled another counterfeit case without revealing the settlement terms. The editor noted, “The lawsuits are likely little more than an annoyance to the e-commerce giant, who makes billions in profit, in part from each sale of counterfeit items.”

[just bob]

Good information. Does anyone else think there is a difference between a counterfeit and a knock off? It would be much easier to go after a Chinese company selling knock off Spyderco knives than a country bumpkin selling counterfeit Case knives. I don't know how they could stop that completely?

[bestgear]

In part, from Microtech's website:

"The result of our efforts is extraordinary quality as well as dependable knives, which are instantly recognizable. MICROTECH knives are, accordingly, highly desired by persons who value the best available knife. This incentivizes counterfeiters. It is the same reason why sought-after items like Rolex watches and designer handbags are widely counterfeited.

Unfortunately, persons exist who are willing to perpetrate a fraud by using the MICROTECH name along with our other registered Trademarks. Invariably, they offer knives made with inferior materials and low-quality parts. The fit and finish of these knives is sloppy and lacking quality. The components are not purposed for integrated function. The blade does not have, and will not hold, a keen and serviceable cutting edge. The knife will quickly fail. The counterfeiter has no reason to build a serviceable — much less a high-quality — knife. The counterfeiter’s name is not on the knife and he is going to disavow the knife when it fails. The goal of the counterfeiter is superficial imitation that will merely deceive a purchaser.

Many sources, especially internet-based, offer MICROTECH “clones”. Do not be misled. It is a misuse of the word “clone” in an attempt to soften the fraud. In this context, clone is a euphemism for counterfeit. Again, no quality, no performance.

Microtech Knives, Inc. has not licensed any entity to use its trademarks, designs, or other intellectual property. Those involved in the importation and commerce, of counterfeit knives, are violating the law enacted to protect you, the consumer, and MICROTECH.

We suggest a modicum of due diligence before you buy a Microtech knife. Hopefully, you are on this website before you exchanged good money for an unworthy knife. Examine the MICROTECH website and catalog. Determine whether you are dealing with a reputable seller, or an imposter.

Be very skeptical of knives sold:

On such sites as DHgate.com; ioffer.com; aliexpress.com
At flea markets, swap meets, and other such casual situations
By street vendors – – in the US and abroad
By “online stores” that have no identity beyond a web address
At prices which are a small fraction of the MICROTECH MSRP
Under circumstances too good to be true"

I agree that the best defense will come from the manufacturers at the consumers expense, been that way since the US Patent Office issued the first patent on July 31, 1790.

[americanedgetech]

I discussed this on BF once.
What it comes down to is the expense of international law suits.
Most items are nothing more than intellectual property, some are copy righted, some are trademarked, some are patented, and some are Internationally patented.
I listed them in order of of their legal protection. What is fact is the international patent can be sued over in any complying country. You do not have to file suit in China to make a claim but you have to serve notice in China, and you have to know whom to serve notice to.
Say you file in the U.S. on a China based company. They have no legal compulsion to come here to defend.
They dissolve the company, and start under a new company name.

There is a web site that sells "REAL COUNTERFEIT" knives. MicroTech' BenchMade, Spydee, ProTech, name a brand... They come in strikingly similar packaging including every item down to the C.O.A. where applicable.
They sell for 20-30-50 bucks each or much less if you buy bulk.
Point here is the company is constantly changing names. One day it's zxc, and the next it's hfg. The only constant is the distributer, and they get away with selling them the same way chemical manufacturers get away with selling "Research chemicals". There are loop holes that allow the importation of counterfeit items as long as they are not "Intended" for re-sale. Things like Movie Props are exempt. Educational purpose is exempt.

Bottom line is it is too expensive to get international patents, and keep them in the first place. Flowing down the line in protection, none of the other legal protections are enforceable in foreign countries.
Even further down is the fact that almost all knives will not qualify for any design protection, only a trade mark.

Knock off's, counterfeits, clones, copies, whatever you call them are a fact in any business. They always have been, and always will be.
The ONLY protection is to out produce the copies, and keep them affordable from the beginning. No one copies a 12 dollar knife.

[KnifeSlinger#81]

I have seen fake spyderco and microtech knives at gun shows, for the full retail price of the real ones. What a shame, and knives are a minority in the world of fake products. The amount of fakes on the world market is staggering.

I read a good article about that a year ago, I wish I could find it now.

[RobesonsRme.com]

The president and federal government could clean this up in a week.

Trump to Xi, "Hey Xi, my friend. Just a quick call. Don't have time to chat nor argue. Just to let you know, I'm going to freeze all Chinese imports into our great country and they will stay frozen until you and your government put a stop to all this counterfeiting of our quality American products by your people. Call me when you have it under control."

Charlie Noyes

[americanedgetech]

Charlie, I did laugh out loud, and for one moment I thought "What a GREAT idea!"

Then I remembered that the U.S. owes China $1.2 trillion as of August 2017. We sold them treasury notes to recover from what Wall Street, and the banking industry did to us with their fake mortgages, and hedge funds.
Set the dice on craps when no one is looking, cover the dice, advertise a no lose game because you sell insurance bets.. A new home to anyone/everyone if the dice are on seven. Craps. We all lose
We tell them (China) to keep their junk, and they call in the note. Bankrupt in one phone call. We lose again.

They hold all the cards Charlie. We stacked the deck, and dealt the wrong hand to the wrong player.
All we can do at this point is watch the game continue, and hope someone else grabs their attention before everything is gone.

Worst case? We as Americans can borrow the money from John Rothschild (AKA our Federal Reserve).

The only way out is to out produce the people that are flooding us with merchandise but we want too much as individuals. We want time off, we want cheap items, we want, we want, we want...
It's a lost battle Charlie. It's over.

[supratentorial]

The president and federal government could clean this up in a week.

Trump to Xi, "Hey Xi, my friend. Just a quick call. Don't have time to chat nor argue. Just to let you know, I'm going to freeze all Chinese imports into our great country and they will stay frozen until you and your government put a stop to all this counterfeiting of our quality American products by your people. Call me when you have it under control."

Charlie Noyes

Freezing all imports from China would freeze Spyderco's legitimate products as well as the knock offs. It would also freeze imports of computers, clothing, etc. We have become so dependent on manufacturing in China that a freeze would hurt the US more than China.

Noone would make fakes if people didn't buy them. And US companies would keep manufacturing in the USA if people didn't buy imports. In our little hobby, it would seem that support for the American cutlery tradition should be a given. But it's not. Look at the support for Rough Rider et al here and elsewhere on the internet. Low price imports put Schrade out of business and now the Schrade name is stamped on the imports that put them out of business. You'd think that would make folks angry. But instead you get attacked if you don't praise the cheap imports. Consumers are driving the production of knock offs and off shore manufacturing.

[Mumbleypeg]

Noone would make fakes if people didn't buy them. In our little hobby, it would seem that support for the American cutlery tradition should be a given. But it's not. Look at the support for Rough Rider et al here and elsewhere on the internet. Low price imports put Schrade out of business and now the Schrade name is stamped on the imports that put them out of business. You'd think that would make folks angry. But instead you get attacked if you don't praise the cheap imports.

Bingo!

Ken