so I gotta ask...

[Berryb]

where do all these fakes come from? Some factory in asia? A garage in Ohio? Is there a catalogue? So if they show up so much on ebay they must be all over flea markets too. Iv'e seen fakes in lots of other areas of collecting but it seems knives would be too labor intensive and technical to make. And who is telling them what to make and what they look like? Ok enough questions. Thanks
Bruce

[kootenay joe]

Bruce, "fakes" covers a range of 'conditions' from a replaced blade to a knife built entirely of recycled parts. The workmanship goes from sloppy to as good as a custom knife (which a fake actually is). To me this shows there are many sources.
Many people have the technical skill and the tools to take knives apart, grind off markings, re-stamp with custom ordered stamping die, polish, etc. And people with these abilities have been around as long as knives have been which means there are fakes 'out there' that are now 100 years old or more.
Why would people make fakes ? Relatively easy money, but rarely big money, but i have seen faked low end knives often enough that i think some people are just 'compulsive tinkerers'; i.e. if they have parts that can be assembled as a fake production knife, they 'have to' make that fake even though they know it will not bring them more than a few dollars.
There are also fakes from India, mostly of vintage Sheffield knives, especially Jos. Rodgers & I*XL Wostenholm. Many of these fakes look old themselves and likely they were made when the British were in India (pre 1947 ?).
We now also have fakes from China of the higher end tacticals like Hinderer & Sebenza and others. Many of the Chinese knives are of high quality but likely other Chinese manufacturers are making cheap knock-off fakes of these too.
Lots of intrigue in the Knife World. Keeps it interesting and makes learning all you can about the real knives very important if you are serious about knife collecting.
This is my take on 'fakes'. I'm sure there is more that others could add. I am far from being an expert on any aspect of knives or knife collecting.
kj

[stockman]

There are Bullet Remingtons out that were put together by good knife mechanics in the 60's and 70's. They are now old and probably can't be known from original factory knives. These were made with original parts.

Harold

[jerryd6818]

And some of the "fakes" are in the eye of the beer holder. IMO they are not fakes at all but are simply modified. IMO the knife I send to one of our fine AAPK knife mechanics for new covers (usually because the originals are shot) is not a fake. At least not at the genesis of that operation. More than one of us have had knives rehandled or modified to suit our fancy and (again IMO) are not fakes.

Now, sometimes the work is done to deceive and I think that's what most folks here are talking about when they say the knife is a fake. Taking a knife and grinding off the tang stamp, then stamping it with an older stamp? That's dishonesty for profit, not modifying to suit your fancy. There are a LOT of people in this world with the tools, skills and greed in their heart to make a knife that looks (to the untrained eye and some even to the trained eye) like an old valuable knife.

There's no cartel of knife fakers. No order form for X number of faked knives. As far as I know, no journal published on "how to make counterfeit knives for fun and profit". It's usually that guy with some level of skills, the necessary tools and the greed and/or desire to deceive in his heart that is the source of that old Remington that never was.

The knock off industry doesn't stop at Air Jordons, Gucci or Rolex. As you've read in Roland's post, the knife industry has also fallen victim to the greed of the unscrupulous in the far east and Indian sub-continent where fooling you is an honorable thing to do.

None of these knifes are original but none of them were made to deceive. They were all modified to please my eye, anywhere from a simple handle replacement to doesn't look anything like the parent knife. So in my mind, none of them are fakes.

[djknife13]

This discussion reminds me how important it is to remember and note when you have an old knife repaired. I admire Overt for marking his repairs but at the same time, I wouldn't want an old collectible knife like my Holley Rip Van Winkle that I had a new spring made for marked anywhere obvious. Is a repaired knife really faked? I suggest that if you pass it off as unaltered from it's used condition that it's deception, if not altogether faked. Lots of room for discussion here. ___Dave

[Berryb]

thanks guys, that clears up alot. It's just that when I followed some of these threads the knives seem new in the box. In those cases the guy actually selling them at the flea market is the one adding the Case badges and tang stamps to an otherwise legit asian made knife?
Bruce

[jerryd6818]

In those cases the guy actually selling them at the flea market is the one adding the Case badges and tang stamps to an otherwise legit asian made knife?
Bruce

Maybe. Maybe not. It's difficult to tell who actually did the work and if you don't know Case knives, the knife could actually be genuine. Since I don't know diddly squat about Case knives, I stay away from them except for newer ones (say 1980 or 1990 on). For those there's really no profit in faking (counterfeiting) most of them.

If ya don't know, let it go. Ignorance is bliss except in collecting and then ignorance is expensive.

[313 Mike]

[quote="jerryd6818"]



There's no cartel of knife fakers. No order form for X number of faked knives. As far as I know, no journal published on "how to make counterfeit knives for fun and profit".


I have, however, seen this book numerous places on line, as well a for sale at a booth at a knife show...

https://www.amazon.com/Counterfeiting-a ... 0966102819

[gsmith7158]

thanks guys, that clears up alot. It's just that when I followed some of these threads the knives seem new in the box. In those cases the guy actually selling them at the flea market is the one adding the Case badges and tang stamps to an otherwise legit asian made knife?
Bruce

Bruce, Here's one I bought before I got my AAPK knowledge. $160 for a complete fake. No original parts, never seen a Case factory, made brand new totally to deceive. An expensive lesson!

[Berryb]

So why don't the companies that hold these trade marks go after them? You always hear about the gov't cracking down on fake designer handbags among other things.
Bruce

[gsmith7158]

So why don't the companies that hold these trade marks go after them? You always hear about the gov't cracking down on fake designer handbags among other things.
Bruce

Case does litigate from time to time, but I think the government just goes after big cases where they can levy a fine for trade violations.

[jerryd6818]

There's no cartel of knife fakers. No order form for X number of faked knives. As far as I know, no journal published on "how to make counterfeit knives for fun and profit".


I have, however, seen this book numerous places on line, as well a for sale at a booth at a knife show...

https://www.amazon.com/Counterfeiting-a ... 0966102819

I stand corrected. Thanks Devil Dog.

[bestgear]

I have watched the Benchmade knives on this site http://www.dhgate.com/wholesale/search. ... arch201403 for the last couple of years and recently a friend purchased a couple to compare them against genuine Benchmade's. They safely arrived from China and at 10-feet you can't tell the difference in the knife, sheath, paperwork, box .... everything looked genuine. Upon closer inspection they are 100% knock-off's. So I submit, an enterprise that has 2,350 listings for one American knife manufacturer is an organized business whose sole purpose in life is to deceive with the motive of profit. Caveat Emptor!

[1967redrider]

WOW, 59 pages of 40 or so listings. That's over 2,300 knock-offs! Hard to comprehend.

[thefarside]

Just for clarification, Gerald Witcher's book 'Counterfeiting Antique Cutlery' is not a how to on building a fake knife. The book is filled with photos of bad knifes next to a good example, to allow people to discern the real thing. He put the book together to save collectors the pain he experienced as a beginner in our hobby.

[jerryd6818]

Thanks farside. That needed to be said.

[rea1eye]

Many great posts here. You are spot on Jerry.

I previously had a Case knife that had bad scales, and I
thought about doing something entirely different for replacement,
After much thought, I had the original type scales replaced. I am glad I did.
I don't consider it fake at all- just refurbished.

If only all these mechanics making fake knives would just offer their
services to restore to original condition or new different materials
there would be very few old knives looking bad ( unless you are in to that look).

Bob

[jerryd6818]

But Robert. You know it's all about the money.

[bestgear]

I'm working right now with a well respected knife artisan on this site to create a replica/memorial/tribute knife that is impossible to locate an original. Throughout the blue printing we have always maintained a position that the knife would be marked in an inconspicuous manner denoting its true provenance. In my humble opinion we are not counterfeiting but rather allowing others to expand their knowledge and vision through a knife that otherwise would remain a ghost.

[Mumbleypeg]

IMHO there's a BIG difference between refurbishing an old knife with genuine parts of the same vintage and from the same pattern, versus altering a blade by grinding off one stamp and replacing it with another. Even replacing a broken handle of one knife with a good handle piece from another of the same vintage is okay with me so long as it's bone for bone or similar and not, say, stag for bone.

The cardinal sin is misrepresenting the knife to be something it is not, so it can be sold or traded for profit to some unsuspecting buyer. There are some who view this as a game, to see if they can swindle someone else, and they really don't think there is any harm in it. They think it's funny when they can fool someone, to the point they even brag about it to others. I knew a couple of old guys (knife traders) in the distant, pre-Internet past, that had a saying when they had successfully cheated someone: "I really put the britches on that guy!" I've wondered about the origin of that saying.

Ken

[Jacknifeben]

I have a Cattaraugus invoice from 1916 and the first line reads blades replaced on a 22919, 22916, and a 22356. That should mean that the blades could look newer than the handles. That would send up a red flag if the knives laid around for the next hundred years and then you decided to try and sell the knife as a genuine old Cattaraugus. Right?

[Colonel26]

Good thread guys with lots of good information.

I have customized knives done by a couple of the knife mechanics here. Celluloid handles on an eye brand whittler that were outgassing replaced with nice red stag. I don't consider that a fake. Some tl-29's converted to eo Jack knives, I don't consider those fakes but customs. And there are a couple of case knives that I bought with no scales and had handled with some special wood. I don't consider those fakes either, but customized knives.

On a different note, I have a western Boulder bone scaled camper that when I got it had a blade with no snap. I sent it to Elvis and he welded up the tang, and put it back together. It's all original and now has snap. Personally I consider this one an original knife. Just brought back to life. I wouldn't have a problem buying it as an original knife. Some would.

Those examples IMO are far and away different from some of the sellers who are purposefully passing off their knives as originals when they are complete and total fakes.

[Old Hunter]

So why don't the companies that hold these trade marks go after them? You always hear about the gov't cracking down on fake designer handbags among other things.
Bruce

Buck Knife Co in Idaho targets counterfeits as best it can - most are direct shipped from China and some are very close copies, right down to the box, papers, etc. It is usually the more valuable models that are being faked. This thread linked from Blade Forum is a good resource for you to check on Buck counterfeits. If a Buck on ebay is priced way cheaper than at any US outlet and ships directly from China beware!

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showt ... -Sell-Them

[knife7knut]

This subject is always bound to bring out some interesting points and some speculations.
For instance I bought a pearl handled whittler many years ago that has two blades stamped Henckels and one stamped I*XL Geo.Wostenholm with the back of one stamped C.Langbein New York. All of the blades were in near as new condition.A little research found that Charles Langbein was a wholesale knife importer AND knife repairman in the early part of the 20th century.Apparently this knife had been repaired by him(or one of his employees)using whatever blades happened to be available and were easy to fit.Not quite a counterfeit but definitely a repaired knife. I also have several early knives(mostly scout/utilities) that have had blades replaced.Not exactly counterfeits either.
My one knife that is most assuredly a counterfeit is a Microtech Troodon that is packaged to look like it was made in the USA and looks for all the world like it is authentic.A real one lists for about $450 and this one cost me $40.The seller made no attempt to claim it was authentic and I had never seen one before so I assumed it was either real and he knew nothing about knives or it was fake.I bought it only because I liked the way it functioned and would never attempt to pass it off as an original.
Upon researching it I found that this knife is one of the most frequently faked knives and has even fooled people familiar with the real ones.
As I stated in a previous thread the high end watch industry is literally over-run with forgeries.

[livinfree]

Fake?