Keen Kutters Made by Winchester
- 1967redrider
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Keen Kutters Made by Winchester
I was looking through Price and Zalesky's Official Price Guide to Collector Knives, 15th Edition and found it interesting that Winchester made knives for E.C. Simmons, if I'm reading this correctly. So does that mean Keen Kutters tang stamped E.C. Simmons were actually made by Winchester or was there a different tang stamp that was used? Attaching a picture of the page from the Price and Zalesky book along with some of the Keen Kutters that I have that are stamped E.C. Simmons.
I should have probably looked in Sellens' Keen Kutter Pocket Knives (Schiffer Book for Collectors) and Heuring's Collector's Guide to E. C. Simmons Keen Kutter: Cutlery and Tools, Identification & Values as well for more info, will probably do so tonight if I get a chance.
I should have probably looked in Sellens' Keen Kutter Pocket Knives (Schiffer Book for Collectors) and Heuring's Collector's Guide to E. C. Simmons Keen Kutter: Cutlery and Tools, Identification & Values as well for more info, will probably do so tonight if I get a chance.
Pocket, fixed, machete, axe, it's all good!
You're going to look awfully silly with that knife sticking out of your @#$. -Clint Eastwood, High Plains Drifter
You're going to look awfully silly with that knife sticking out of your @#$. -Clint Eastwood, High Plains Drifter
Re: Keen Kutters Made by Winchester
Thanks for this topic. I always interpreted what I've read on Simmons/Keen Kutter/Walden/ Winchester as: Walden being the producer of Simmons Hardware Keen Kutter brand knives. Walden still produced their own Trademarked knives while producing the exact same ones for Simmons. When Winchester bought out Walden Walden ceased to exist as a brand but their machinary (and probably some former Employees) was used to make both Winchester and Keen Kutter Brand cutlery until Winchester got out of the Harware Cutlery game at the outset of WWII. At that point the Keen Kutter brand knives were made by Shrade Walden and perhaps other companies. I've read and re-read the texts you mention and I'm still not confident I have it right but I enjoy the conversation--thanks again.
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Re: Keen Kutters Made by Winchester
Thanks for the reply, interested in seeing what you have.Robo wrote:Thanks for this topic. I always interpreted what I've read on Simmons/Keen Kutter/Walden/ Winchester as Walden being the producer of Simmons Hardware Keen Kutter brand knives. Walden still produced their own Trademarked knives while producing the exact same ones for Simmons. When Winchester bought out Walden Walden ceased to exist as a brand but their machinary (and probably some former Employees) was used to make both Winchester and Keen Kutter Brand cutlery until Winchester got out of the Harware Cutlery game at the outset of WWII. At that point the Keen Kutter brand knives were made by Shrade Walden and perhaps other companies. I'll post pictures of my examples.
Pocket, fixed, machete, axe, it's all good!
You're going to look awfully silly with that knife sticking out of your @#$. -Clint Eastwood, High Plains Drifter
You're going to look awfully silly with that knife sticking out of your @#$. -Clint Eastwood, High Plains Drifter
Re: Keen Kutters Made by Winchester
My Pleasure. I added them to original post. Unfortunately I couldn't get a shot of the faded Keen Kutter tang stamp that was worth a dang.1967redrider wrote:Thanks for the reply, interested in seeing what you have.Robo wrote:Thanks for this topic. I always interpreted what I've read on Simmons/Keen Kutter/Walden/ Winchester as Walden being the producer of Simmons Hardware Keen Kutter brand knives. Walden still produced their own Trademarked knives while producing the exact same ones for Simmons. When Winchester bought out Walden Walden ceased to exist as a brand but their machinary (and probably some former Employees) was used to make both Winchester and Keen Kutter Brand cutlery until Winchester got out of the Harware Cutlery game at the outset of WWII. At that point the Keen Kutter brand knives were made by Shrade Walden and perhaps other companies. I'll post pictures of my examples.
Re: Keen Kutters Made by Winchester
Here are a few Keen Kutters and a Winchester. The top knife is a K53 5/8, the next a Winchester 2949, then a K53 and finally a Keen Kutter K53 3/4. The top knife is a Camillus made knife. The rough black knife is, I believe, the oldest, Walden made, it is slightly smaller than the others. The other two are Walden made, one stamped Winchester one Keen Kutter.
- 1967redrider
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Re: Keen Kutters Made by Winchester
Thanks for the replies and great looking knives!
From Sellens book, he mentions that Winchester bought Simmons Hardware in 1922 and the Keen Kutter knives were made by Winchester from 1923 to 1929. I think the "1929" date is a mistake and should be 1939. If not, who made the knives from 1929 to 1940 when Shapleigh took over?
I'm just trying to figure out if there's a clearcut way to identify which Keen Kutters were definitely made by Winchester, based on tang stamp or something else. Sellens also provides dates particular patterns were produced in his book, not sure where he is pulling that information from either. But I don't think no one made Keen Kutter knives for Simmons from 1929 to 1939/1940 so his 1929 end date cannot be correct.
I'm happy to see what you guys think regarding this, thanks for your replies in advance.
From Sellens book, he mentions that Winchester bought Simmons Hardware in 1922 and the Keen Kutter knives were made by Winchester from 1923 to 1929. I think the "1929" date is a mistake and should be 1939. If not, who made the knives from 1929 to 1940 when Shapleigh took over?
I'm just trying to figure out if there's a clearcut way to identify which Keen Kutters were definitely made by Winchester, based on tang stamp or something else. Sellens also provides dates particular patterns were produced in his book, not sure where he is pulling that information from either. But I don't think no one made Keen Kutter knives for Simmons from 1929 to 1939/1940 so his 1929 end date cannot be correct.
I'm happy to see what you guys think regarding this, thanks for your replies in advance.
Pocket, fixed, machete, axe, it's all good!
You're going to look awfully silly with that knife sticking out of your @#$. -Clint Eastwood, High Plains Drifter
You're going to look awfully silly with that knife sticking out of your @#$. -Clint Eastwood, High Plains Drifter
Re: Keen Kutters Made by Winchester
Two knives, Top Winchester other KK. I have always called this shield a "Winchester shield" Don't remember how I started this. Probably AAPK.
Harold
Harold
Re: Keen Kutters Made by Winchester
Interesting conversation John, Dan may chime in. I don’t know anything to help.
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GEC SFOs and others at LICK CREEK CUTLERY- www.allaboutpocketknives.com/wlf
May the Father and Son bless
Lyle
- 1967redrider
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Re: Keen Kutters Made by Winchester
Thanks, Lyle.wlf wrote:Interesting conversation John, Dan may chime in. I don’t know anything to help.
Pocket, fixed, machete, axe, it's all good!
You're going to look awfully silly with that knife sticking out of your @#$. -Clint Eastwood, High Plains Drifter
You're going to look awfully silly with that knife sticking out of your @#$. -Clint Eastwood, High Plains Drifter
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Re: Keen Kutters Made by Winchester
Here is a EC Simmons Keen Kutter that Danno thinks was probably made by Winchester. Thanks for looking.
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Re: Keen Kutters Made by Winchester
Great looking knife, thanks for posting.woodwalker wrote:Here is a EC Simmons Keen Kutter that Danno thinks was probably made by Winchester. Thanks for looking.
Pocket, fixed, machete, axe, it's all good!
You're going to look awfully silly with that knife sticking out of your @#$. -Clint Eastwood, High Plains Drifter
You're going to look awfully silly with that knife sticking out of your @#$. -Clint Eastwood, High Plains Drifter
Re: Keen Kutters Made by Winchester
I recently had two Keen Kutter barlows that appeared identical - same frame, same pattern number (K2881), same feel, but one was stamped EC Simmons KK on the tang while the other had just the KK logo without the Simmons name. These barlows had the distinctive size, shape, and heft of a Camillus barlow. Winchester barlow frames were smaller, lighter, and more rounded than these.
The fact that one of them did not bear the EC Simmons mark led me to think that these were probably made near the end of Simmons Hardware, and after 1929 Simmons Hardware contracted with manufacturers other than Winchester to make Keen Kutter knives.
The fact that one of them did not bear the EC Simmons mark led me to think that these were probably made near the end of Simmons Hardware, and after 1929 Simmons Hardware contracted with manufacturers other than Winchester to make Keen Kutter knives.
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Re: Keen Kutters Made by Winchester
I’ll attempt to clarify some of these questions to the best of my ability. My sources are a magnificent book called Standard Catalog of Winchester and Goins Encyclopedia of Cutlery Markings, the latter of which many of you are familiar. The first book is a compilation of cuts from old catalogs covering all things sold under the Winchester brand, from sporting goods to hardware, appliances and even paint! Included are 52 pages of pictures and text on Winchester pocket knives. The book covers Winchester knives produced up until WWII.
I posted some of this recently in another thread. Prior to 1919 there were no Winchester brand pocket knives. That year Winchester acquired eight different companies including Napanoch Knife Company and Eagle Pocket Knife Company. Which put Winchester into the pocket knife business. However it seems Winchester in their rapid expansion had bitten off too much. They needed an infusion of cash, which they got in 1922 through a merger with the Associated Simmons Hardware Company. Simmons already owned Walden Knife Company at the time, and production of cutlery was combined under the Winchester arm of the merged companies. So within 3 years Winchester went from having zero cutlery to being a major player. Most Walden designs became Winchester designs.
The merger with Simmons lasted several years but in 1931 Winchester and its operations was purchased by Western Cartridge. Production of cutlery was dropped at that time. It was later re-instated. The particulars of when, where and how it was re-instated are not provided. Winchester’s production of cutlery then ceased again a few years later with the advent of WWII. It was never restarted. Winchester branded knives produced since then have been made by others.
Ken
The merger with Simmons lasted several years but in 1931 Winchester and its operations was purchased by Western Cartridge. Production of cutlery was dropped at that time. It was later re-instated. The particulars of when, where and how it was re-instated are not provided. Winchester’s production of cutlery then ceased again a few years later with the advent of WWII. It was never restarted. Winchester branded knives produced since then have been made by others.
Ken
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Re: Keen Kutters Made by Winchester
Greatly appreciated, Ken!
More from Price & Zalesky's 15th Edition on the subject, I hope you can read my picture. No cutoff date mentioned as to when exactly Winchester stopped making knives for Simmons.
John
More from Price & Zalesky's 15th Edition on the subject, I hope you can read my picture. No cutoff date mentioned as to when exactly Winchester stopped making knives for Simmons.
John
Pocket, fixed, machete, axe, it's all good!
You're going to look awfully silly with that knife sticking out of your @#$. -Clint Eastwood, High Plains Drifter
You're going to look awfully silly with that knife sticking out of your @#$. -Clint Eastwood, High Plains Drifter
Re: Keen Kutters Made by Winchester
Ken -
The fact that Winchester stopped production of knives, then restarted might be linked to the observation that early Winchesters were stamped on all blades, while others knives were only stamped on the master blades.
B
The fact that Winchester stopped production of knives, then restarted might be linked to the observation that early Winchesters were stamped on all blades, while others knives were only stamped on the master blades.
B
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Re: Keen Kutters Made by Winchester
Per Goins,Bilbo wrote:Ken -
The fact that Winchester stopped production of knives, then restarted might be linked to the observation that early Winchesters were stamped on all blades, while others knives were only stamped on the master blades.
B
My interpretation of this is that after 1931 Winchester made both a high quality knife marked on all blades, and a lower quality knife marked only on the master blade.“Of the old Winchester knives, there were two grades. The first was marked on all blades, and was very well built. In fact in 1922 Winchester and Robeson were considered to be the best knives in the world. After Western Cartridge purchased the firm in 1931 the high quality continued on the knives marked on all blades. It was after 1931 that the second type of Winchester knife was introduced. This knife was marked on the master blade only. It is not of the same high quality as the other knives”.
Ken
Member AKTI, TSRA, NRA.
If your religion requires that you hate someone, you need a new religion.
When the people fear their government, that is tyranny. When government fears the people, that is freedom.
https://www.akti.org/
If your religion requires that you hate someone, you need a new religion.
When the people fear their government, that is tyranny. When government fears the people, that is freedom.
https://www.akti.org/
Re: Keen Kutters Made by Winchester
Thanks Ken! That’s good information.
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Re: Keen Kutters Made by Winchester
I wonder if any of these single stamped Winchesters were shipped to E.C. Simmons? I'll have to check to see if any of my Keen Kutters only have 1 blade stamped.Mumbleypeg wrote:Per Goins,Bilbo wrote:Ken -
The fact that Winchester stopped production of knives, then restarted might be linked to the observation that early Winchesters were stamped on all blades, while others knives were only stamped on the master blades.
B
My interpretation of this is that after 1931 Winchester made both a high quality knife marked on all blades, and a lower quality knife marked only on the master blade.“Of the old Winchester knives, there were two grades. The first was marked on all blades, and was very well built. In fact in 1922 Winchester and Robeson were considered to be the best knives in the world. After Western Cartridge purchased the firm in 1931 the high quality continued on the knives marked on all blades. It was after 1931 that the second type of Winchester knife was introduced. This knife was marked on the master blade only. It is not of the same high quality as the other knives”.
Ken
Pocket, fixed, machete, axe, it's all good!
You're going to look awfully silly with that knife sticking out of your @#$. -Clint Eastwood, High Plains Drifter
You're going to look awfully silly with that knife sticking out of your @#$. -Clint Eastwood, High Plains Drifter
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Re: Keen Kutters Made by Winchester
I think I can agree with the thinking that better quality knives were stamped on all blades.
This sleeveboard jack is stamped on all blades. I can’t verify date of manufacture but my guess is 1920s. The fit and finish is quite good and the master blade still has alligator snap.
If anyone has two pen blades stamped “E. C. Simmons St. Louis” for sale or trade I’m interested in making a deal.
Thanks Steve B.
Red rider I only have 5 Keen Kutters but all are multi blade with every blade stamped.
This sleeveboard jack is stamped on all blades. I can’t verify date of manufacture but my guess is 1920s. The fit and finish is quite good and the master blade still has alligator snap.
If anyone has two pen blades stamped “E. C. Simmons St. Louis” for sale or trade I’m interested in making a deal.
Thanks Steve B.
Red rider I only have 5 Keen Kutters but all are multi blade with every blade stamped.
Steve B.
Keep your edge sharp, otherwise you just can't cut it.
Looking for Carrier Cutlery and early Robeson with Elmira tang stamps.
Keep your edge sharp, otherwise you just can't cut it.
Looking for Carrier Cutlery and early Robeson with Elmira tang stamps.
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Re: Keen Kutters Made by Winchester
Bladebuddy, that's a sweet old knife and I love the Jumbo Sleeveboard pattern. I was fortunate enough to find one of these a few years ago.bladebuddy wrote:I think I can agree with the thinking that better quality knives were stamped on all blades.
This sleeveboard jack is stamped on all blades. I can’t verify date of manufacture but my guess is 1920s. The fit and finish is quite good and the master blade still has alligator snap.
If anyone has two pen blades stamped “E. C. Simmons St. Louis” for sale or trade I’m interested in making a deal.
Thanks Steve B.
Red rider I only have 5 Keen Kutters but all are multi blade with every blade stamped.
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Pocket, fixed, machete, axe, it's all good!
You're going to look awfully silly with that knife sticking out of your @#$. -Clint Eastwood, High Plains Drifter
You're going to look awfully silly with that knife sticking out of your @#$. -Clint Eastwood, High Plains Drifter
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Re: Keen Kutters Made by Winchester
Red rider thanks for posting your sleeveboard picture. Looks like the two pen blades were of equal size when new.
Steve B.
Keep your edge sharp, otherwise you just can't cut it.
Looking for Carrier Cutlery and early Robeson with Elmira tang stamps.
Keep your edge sharp, otherwise you just can't cut it.
Looking for Carrier Cutlery and early Robeson with Elmira tang stamps.
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Re: Keen Kutters Made by Winchester
Nice knives bladebuddy and redrider!!
I like the old rosewood and ebony handles knives!
I like the old rosewood and ebony handles knives!
Life is too short to carry an ugly knife!!
Shawn
Shawn