This doesn't look original

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KnifeSlinger#81
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This doesn't look original

Post by KnifeSlinger#81 »

This seller has 3 schrades listed as mint unused unsharpened with "genuine jig bone handles". It's obvious all of these knives have been cleaned and buffed to appear mint, the handles on the muskrat and whittler do not look like schrades peachseed bone and the whittler is the last version of that pattern and was made long after bone was ceased to be used. The 225H bone looks more convincing but I'm not convinced, especially considering how rare an original bone 225H is. There's also an LB7 with genuine stag and an ulster with similar bone as the 225H that looks suspect but I'm not well versed on ulsters. I see it as a bit dishonest when the seller is really peddling the condition of these knives but makes no mention that at least 3 have been rehandled and all have been cleaned to look mint. Now here is where it gets interesting, there are two more customized schrades that bear the mark of Herman Williams and a certificate stating that was his work. The cleaning job and rehandles of the other knives look well done but do not have a Herman Williams mark on any part of them, if they did the seller would surely use that as a good selling point. Thoughts?

http://m.ebay.com/sch/i.html?sid=electr ... efine=true
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-Paul T.

WANTED: Shapleigh Diamond Edge branded Schrades in good condition.
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Re: This doesn't look original

Post by kootenay joe »

The jigged bone looks like the type of handles Herman Williams has been making and installing on the knives he sells. The handles on these knives are NOT original SCC or S-W jigged bone.
I just now clicked on the link: "Electra_225" is Herman Williams. These are Schrade knives that he has re-handled and re-built as well, which is what he now does to support himself. The 'Electra 225' was his dream car as a young man.
Herman does fine work but on Swinden key knives it is difficult to re-assemble them and not end up with some blade play(personal communication from Herman). Hence i always ask about blade play before getting one of his knives.
kj
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Re: This doesn't look original

Post by knifeaholic »

Am I missing something here? He is selling these knives with the implication that they are original - no indication that he has rehandled them.
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Re: This doesn't look original

Post by tongueriver »

Herman Williams uses templates to facilitate listing knives without re-typing everything over and over and sometimes misses something. This is probably what happened here. I can tell you that there was never a finer or more honest seller on ebay. He is a master cutler and has never NEVER deliberately mis-represented anything. He does some truly wonderful work and adds a layer of kindness and generosity to ice the cake. A great man.
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Re: This doesn't look original

Post by KnifeSlinger#81 »

knifeaholic wrote:Am I missing something here? He is selling these knives with the implication that they are original - no indication that he has rehandled them.
No, you aren't missing anything. I could have been a little more direct with my post but that's the basis of it.
tongueriver wrote:Herman Williams uses templates to facilitate listing knives without re-typing everything over and over and sometimes misses something. This is probably what happened here. I can tell you that there was never a finer or more honest seller on ebay. He is a master cutler and has never NEVER deliberately mis-represented anything. He does some truly wonderful work and adds a layer of kindness and generosity to ice the cake. A great man.
I never would have imagined this seller is Herman Williams, thanks to you and Roland for the clarification. I assumed the seller was not a "knife person" and may not have known the difference between a mint and a cleaned to mint knife, or a rehandle.
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Re: This doesn't look original

Post by kootenay joe »

Just to add a little to what Cal has said: Herman is getting on in years but he still has to rely on doing this knife work to bring in an income to live on. "Getting on in years" means less energy, memory not quite as good, etc. I think it is important for us knife buyers to cut sellers a little slack until we know the seller's circumstances. As Calvin has said Herman is one of the kindest, most self effacing, & generous individuals you are ever likely to meet.
He would be very sad if he ever learned that someone was mislead by his listing and i know would insist on refunding the buyer 100% with instructions to "please keep the knife".
kj
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Re: This doesn't look original

Post by KnifeSlinger#81 »

kootenay joe wrote:I think it is important for us knife buyers to cut sellers a little slack until we know the seller's circumstances.
You are spot on, I had never thought about it that way before.
-Paul T.

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Re: This doesn't look original

Post by philco »

Thanks for posting these knives. I love the Schrade LB7 and just put a bid on the one Herman has for sale. Wish me luck. :mrgreen:
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Re: This doesn't look original

Post by kootenay joe »

Good Luck 'ol bean.
And it is not a Swinden so no worries 'bout slight blade play. That's a possibility in the Swinden ones only.
kj
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Re: This doesn't look original

Post by dweb1897 »

KnifeSlinger: Herman worked for Schrade as their in-house customizer for 24 years. There are many of us in the Schrade collecting community that consider any knives done by him to be factory originals, 13 years after the bankruptcy. The jigging on the above knives was done by Herman who has the original jigging machine that was built in Schrade's machine shop. He was taught to use it by "an old timer". The only difference is that he won't wear leather gloves when using it as Schrade required of their employees. The Muskrat has the original factory edge although Herman had to buff the blades to remove carbon marks. The 225 is a very rare knife. The frame is actually a Schrade Cut Co. The LB-7 doesn't have his name on it because he assembled it from factory parts, including factory stag handles, and didn't modify it. The 863 might or might not have his name on the pile side of the master blade...I can't tell from the pictures. The Ulster knife is only the second one he has ever seen,I believe LT has the other Gaff knife, and as Schrade Walden and Ulster are basically the same knife, I would imagine it is truely a rare item. It had yellow composite handles originally but they were deteriorating. Many times on knives he has brought back to life, he doesn't put his name or year of work on the tang, but you will find it on the inside liners. Most of us know who Herman is, a genuine gentleman, a true friend, a deacon in his church, a font of knowledge with respect to Schrade history and an artist with knives. This year he will be 80 and is still building knives for myself and a few others. This a great man you have talked about and I for one am offended by your posting when you obviously did no research about your subject.
Doug Webber
By the way Joe...at one time Herman did own a Buick Electra, and a 57 Chevy I believe.
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KnifeSlinger#81
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Re: This doesn't look original

Post by KnifeSlinger#81 »

Dweb I am sorry that my post offended you, that was not the intent of it. I am curious as to what research could I have done to know this seller was Herman Williams? There is no information on his ebay profile or in the feedback that would tell me it was him and I did check those before making my post. The reason I did post this was these knives were curious to me and I wanted to see what other forum members thought about it, that was the research per se. Please don't get me wrong, I do not mean to speak ill of Herman but from the responses im getting it seems that I did by mistake. There are two things I did not take into account, one is that my post came off as a bit brash and the other is what KJ said: "I think it is important for us knife buyers to cut sellers a little slack until we know the seller's circumstances." That is something I neglected to do and it was a mistake on my part.
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Re: This doesn't look original

Post by dweb1897 »

I agree that AAPK is a great place to research knives...perhaps those questions should be asked before posting someones pictures in a thread called "Counterfit Watch"
I have a hard time trusting someone who doesn't like dogs...but if my dog doesn't like someone, I'll trust that.
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Re: This doesn't look original

Post by kootenay joe »

dweb, thanks for posting the additional info on Mr. Williams. It helps 'round out' the picture of who he is.
I do take objection to your criticism of the opening poster who i know to be a kind and fair person.
"Counterfeit Watch" is used for posting knives we don't quite understand and think might be other than as being presented. I have posted ebay knives in this forum to be told by more experienced collectors that the knife is "o.k.", "all original". The knife does not have to be a fake to get posted here. It simply needs to confuse the o.p. enough that he needs help in 'reading the knife'. Whether fake or not the replies usually add up to a learning experience for many of us.
In this instance i did not read the o.p. as being particularly critical of the seller, but more of being a bit confused by these knives and asking 'what's up here ?'
peace brothers,
kj
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Re: This doesn't look original

Post by Tsar Bomba »

Agreed 100%, this forum is informational and I don't see any of it as a de facto allegation against any one particular knife, seller, or cutler.

I can definitely understand KS81's questioning, seeing as how I instantly spotted the similarities in the bone between the folding hunter and the toothpick (I'd be willing to bet a ten-spot that the bone stock used on the 225 and the gaff knife came from the same place and maybe even jigged on the same pass). Knowing that Mr. Williams is selling the knives himself, however, I suddenly find myself interested in that 863. :mrgreen:
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Re: This doesn't look original

Post by KnifeSlinger#81 »

He also just posted an 834 with the same bone and the spey seems to have been ground into a pen blade, that would be a mighty fine EDC.
-Paul T.

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Re: This doesn't look original

Post by electra225 »

Dear Mr. KnifeSlinger#81,
My name is Herman Williams. I would like to clarify a few thing for you. #1- I have and would never post a counterfeit knife. #2 - I was since 1978 up through 2004 when Imperial "Schrade closed its door, an authorized, by Uncle Henry Bear , Albert Bear and Schrade Cutlery Corporation, U.S.A. located in Ellenville, N.Y. an authorized Repairman and Customizer for Imperial Schrade and Associated Companies, U.S.A. #3 - The tool I use to jig the bone is the tool used by Schrade cutlers many years ago. I was trained by Schrade management to use this tool as they did, and was given the tool by Schrade management, and authorized to use it. #4 - All the parts and knives I post are genuine Schrade U.S.A., with authorization to use them when Schrade was in business up until 2004.
On listing my work on eBay: The Schrade Walden 225H. This knife was not mint, but in my judgment it was in very good to excellent condition. It had never been sharpened, but had lots of spider web defects on the blades. It was cleaned and the original scotchbrite finish put back on it as the pictures showed. If you had researched the knife you would have found the four pin handles is a transition knife from Schrade Cut. Co. to the Schrade Walden. Jig bone was the handles for this knife although this particular knife has jigged delrin handles on it. Replacing these handles with jig bone did not make it a counterfeit. No need taking up the readers time and space to go through the rest of the knives you mentioned in your post. All of them was described as best they could be in my judgment, and none of them are counterfeits.
It would be very right for you to retract some of your comments concerning my work. Regards, Herman Williams
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Re: This doesn't look original

Post by Schradenut »

I would like to reiterate what dwebb said in his post, and for anyone to suggest that Herman Williams produced counterfeit knives would be one of the most terrible thoughts anybody could have.
The suggestion has been well covered by the great man himself, so i don't need to expand on that any further. Apart from being the envy of cutlers all over the US, he would be one of the nicest gentleman anyone could meet.

This might have started out as an 'off the cuff' comment, but it has surely stirred up the wasps nest.

I hope this has answered your suggestion knifeslinger. It troubles me greatly that this fine gentleman has to get on this forum and defend himself, when people all over the World lay testament to fine work he has put out over a lifetime. You obviously don't know very much about Herman Williams, or you wouldn't attack him in this way, specially in his twilight years.
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Re: This doesn't look original

Post by electra225 »

Mr.KnifeSlinger,
All you would have had to do was check on some of my listings on eBay and you could have found out about my authorization and could have contacted me through eBay email.
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Re: This doesn't look original

Post by KnifeSlinger#81 »

electra225 wrote:Dear Mr. KnifeSlinger#81,
My name is Herman Williams. I would like to clarify a few thing for you. #1- I have and would never post a counterfeit knife. #2 - I was since 1978 up through 2004 when Imperial "Schrade closed its door, an authorized, by Uncle Henry Bear , Albert Bear and Schrade Cutlery Corporation, U.S.A. located in Ellenville, N.Y. an authorized Repairman and Customizer for Imperial Schrade and Associated Companies, U.S.A. #3 - The tool I use to jig the bone is the tool used by Schrade cutlers many years ago. I was trained by Schrade management to use this tool as they did, and was given the tool by Schrade management, and authorized to use it. #4 - All the parts and knives I post are genuine Schrade U.S.A., with authorization to use them when Schrade was in business up until 2004.
On listing my work on eBay: The Schrade Walden 225H. This knife was not mint, but in my judgment it was in very good to excellent condition. It had never been sharpened, but had lots of spider web defects on the blades. It was cleaned and the original scotchbrite finish put back on it as the pictures showed. If you had researched the knife you would have found the four pin handles is a transition knife from Schrade Cut. Co. to the Schrade Walden. Jig bone was the handles for this knife although this particular knife has jigged delrin handles on it. Replacing these handles with jig bone did not make it a counterfeit. No need taking up the readers time and space to go through the rest of the knives you mentioned in your post. All of them was described as best they could be in my judgment, and none of them are counterfeits.
It would be very right for you to retract some of your comments concerning my work. Regards, Herman Williams
I am very sorry that I misjudged your knives and I hope that I did not offend you or your work. I see now that I did not have the full picture and because of that this thread turned into something it was never intended to. The reason I posted in the counterfeit forum is because it seemed like the appropriate place to discuss these knives when I could see that they had been worked on and wanted some other opinions on them, I did not suggest they were counterfeits and if I implied that with anything I said then I apologize. Clearly I have made a fool of myself. Mr. Williams, dweb and schradenut: we got off on the wrong foot and I am sincerely sorry.
-Paul T.

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Re: This doesn't look original

Post by Tsar Bomba »

Mr. Williams, did you do all the peachseed jigging on that 225 and the stockman you posted on ebay today?

Glad to have someone as accomplished in the art on this forum! I am keenly interested in some of those knives and I will be following those auctions closely! ::tu::
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Re: This doesn't look original

Post by kootenay joe »

Hi Herman, this is roland procter 'speaking'.
I know "KnifeSlinger' who made the original post and he is a fine & generous man who meant no harm but his post got somewhat misunderstood.
You can see from my 3 previous posts plus posts from "tongueriver" (Calvin Pruitt) & "dweb" & "Schradenut" that you are loved & respected by all in the knife community who know you.
Fortunately there is some good coming of this as some AAPK'ers did not know that you are "electra_225" on ebay and now either have bid or are thinking of doing so for some of your knives.
And as for your reputation: there is nothing here that need cause you any worry or concern. " keep on truckin' ! "
I wish you a healthy happy and prosperous 2017.
kootenay joe
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Re: This doesn't look original

Post by peanut740 »

KnifeSlinger in my opinion you did nothing wrong.I read a couple of his listings and he made NO mention of the knives being rehandled.If people want to buy one of his knives that is their choice. By what everyone says about him that knows him he is a fine fellow.If this was a Case knife that had been rehandled and the seller didn't mention it he would have been crushed on this forum.
Roger
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Re: This doesn't look original

Post by kootenay joe »

I agree with peanut740 100%.
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Re: This doesn't look original

Post by electra225 »

Mr. KnifeSlinger#81
Everything is OK with me. No hard feeling at all. Was just a little upset. No problem. I guess I just take it for granted that everypne in the knife circles know of me. The best to you.
Regards,
Herman
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Re: This doesn't look original

Post by gsmith7158 »

I have been watching this thread unfold with a bit of dismay. Since I have been a member of this forum the mood here has always been about sharing information with those who lacked it. KS 81 clearly stated that he was unaware that Mr. Williams was the seller when he made his O.P. and Mr. Williams made no attempt to clarify that fact in his listing. Therefore I see no attempt to insult Mr. Williams. All KS81 did was ask for some opinions about something he wasn't sure of. As for those insulted and indignant by a request for information, shame, shame, shame. If I were a novice Schrade collector I would run the other way.
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