cell disease

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edgy46
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cell disease

Post by edgy46 »

Been rolling the dice on celluloid for years, and it finally bit me today. Fortunately no damage to other knives in the eighty place storage case. The knife was not worth much, but it ruined a planned evening of playing with my toys.
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An uncontrolled accumulator. ::shrug::
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Re: cell disease

Post by btrwtr »

Nice little knife. To bad about the corrosion. I don't see any sign of the celluloid deteriorating. Normally the outgassing will only affect the exposed metal that sticks out above the liners until the decomposing advances. Were the blades opened in storage?

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Re: cell disease

Post by djknife13 »

I agree with Wayne. That just doesn't look the way it should for the celuloid to be gassing. The rust should be only where the blade was most exposed and the celuloid should show alot more deterioration for that much corrosion. The knives around that one in storage should at least show a dull haze on the metal close to that knife. Something doesn't look normal. ___Dave
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Re: cell disease

Post by edgy46 »

I could be wrong, (not a new thing) but the knife was near mint when stored. The corrosion is pushing the scales away from the liners. I will put it up in a Ziploc and see what happens.
An uncontrolled accumulator. ::shrug::
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Re: cell disease

Post by djknife13 »

When I enlarge the second picture it sure does look like something is eating the springs. I'm just supprised the celuloid doesn't show. I have had a few go bad but they always started in one spot and it was obvious that the celuloid had a problem before the metal actually rusted. I have about 75 old celuloid knives stored in each of two knife pacs and I check them often but in 20 years none of those have gone bad. I know I'm taking a chance. The ones I have lost were from the Remington second generation knives and they were in boxes and I caught them before they got bad a had them re-scaled in bone. I love the celuloid colors. I wonder if the white liner on your knife is also celuloid and is deteriorating under the colored scales. Anyway I feel your pain. I had a mint 1950's western cracked ice fixed blade in a mint sheath that now is stag and one that is sheeps horn that was almost mint when it went bad. Can you feel the tingle of the acid from the celuloid on your fingers after handling the knife? I actually could on one of mine. ___Dave
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cattaraugus57
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Re: cell disease

Post by cattaraugus57 »

Hmmm..apply anything to that Knife before storing?..(Oil etc,polish etc?
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edgy46
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Re: cell disease

Post by edgy46 »

djknife13 wrote:When I enlarge the second picture it sure does look like something is eating the springs. I'm just supprised the celuloid doesn't show. I have had a few go bad but they always started in one spot and it was obvious that the celuloid had a problem before the metal actually rusted. I have about 75 old celuloid knives stored in each of two knife pacs and I check them often but in 20 years none of those have gone bad. I know I'm taking a chance. The ones I have lost were from the Remington second generation knives and they were in boxes and I caught them before they got bad a had them re-scaled in bone. I love the celuloid colors. I wonder if the white liner on your knife is also celuloid and is deteriorating under the colored scales. Anyway I feel your pain. I had a mint 1950's western cracked ice fixed blade in a mint sheath that now is stag and one that is sheeps horn that was almost mint when it went bad. Can you feel the tingle of the acid from the celuloid on your fingers after handling the knife? I actually could on one of mine. ___Dave
I have been working in heavy industry for over fifty years and my hands do not react to many chemicals anymore. I will take the knife to the Ohio Knife Days show on Friday and get some expert opinions. I will post next week with the opinions I get.

Catt57 I do not remember, but probably not. I rarely oil any knife with cell handle scales.
An uncontrolled accumulator. ::shrug::
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glennbad
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Re: cell disease

Post by glennbad »

When you take those covers off, I think you may find something nasty happening underneath where they meet the liners.

Sorry that happened, but I'm glad nothing else was affected.
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Re: cell disease

Post by LongBlade »

It certainly doesn't have that classic celluloid outgassing look but given my example below I would venture a guess that the celluloid scales near bottom spring are outgassing up through the center and thus the blades are being affected.... be curious to hear what some of the experts say at the show...

Hope you guys don't mind but here are a few photos of the best example I have seen of celluloid outgassing but shows how just one part of knife can set off the self destruction - not my knife but a knife I saw in an old shop laying among other knives... Unfortunately this was a nice old Winchester 2 blade senator at one one time... I actually explained to the owner celluloid outgassing and that the knife should be moved away from the others - actually tossed or a major overhaul... I told him it may be saved but it would no doubt need new scales and a lot of work.. basically I told him that is was worthless to me when asked so he asked me if I wanted it... I told him I would take it but only to do some experiments with the outgassing - figured this would be my chance to use those anti-tarnish silver strips that supposedly soak up sulfuric acid gasses - the culprit in outgassing... just curious if I clean the knife the best I can and put it in a box with those strips what would happen.. we will see...

Anyway - few photos of knife with that classic celluloid self-destruction... text book example to me...

Here's the mark side - note the bolster on right and master blade with line of rust along top edge - however the scale looks fine for the most part...
Winchester Celluloid Outgassing 1.jpg
Here's the pile side - again rust along top edge of master but note the pile side scale and bolster looks fine...
Winchester Celluloid Outgassing 2.jpg
Mark side again - the pen blade on opposite side looks fine - even the top edge...
Winchester Celluloid Outgassing 3.jpg
Pile side - the pen blade looks fine...
Winchester Celluloid Outgassing 4.jpg
Here's the bolster that is self destructing - bottom view and you can see thee spring is also on the way out....
Winchester Celluloid Outgassing 5.jpg

Celluloid outgassing is no doubt strange... not like the whole knife was being destroyed at one time but the "start" of the fire was no doubt near the mark side right bolster - the scales don't look all that bad - cracking etc etc even though the shield is missing but not sure when that happened... on your knife maybe it was along the bottom edge of the celluloid scales as alluded to above... again just a guess on my part and would like to hear what the majority say at the knife show...

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Re: cell disease

Post by knife7knut »

I have had a couple of cel handled knives deteriorate but they never looked like that.The blades look almost as if they have been blued with acid and left to corrode.When celluloid degrades it usually leaves a uniform coating of rust on the exposed surfaces of the blades.Worse;sometimes it will eat into the brass liners and cause them to disintegrate.
Here are a couple of pics of a Buck Creek swing guard that I bought new.Almost from the time I got it the corrosion started to appear on the exposed part of the blade when it was closed(see closeup of the blade;it is barely visible at the spine as I had cleaned it).I would clean it periodically and it seemed fine;the scales showed no signs of deterioration(see pics of scales).One day I pushed the lock down to close it and the back of the knife snapped off.The corrosion had eaten through the brass liners and caused them to fail. The scales still showed no signs of damage.
I have an old Novelty Cutlery Co letter opener knife from the early 1940's that had one liner completely eaten away while the other side(scale and liner)remained untouched. A lot of early knives suffer a similar fate:one side completely destroyed and the other like new.I have an old Aerial folding hunter and a Robeson swing guard that had the same problem. I also have an old Novco that is almost a hundred years old and looks like it came out of the factory yesterday. Go figure!
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Re: cell disease

Post by whitebuffalo58 »

Celluloid can off-gas without destroying itself, but still put off a noxious gas that can destroy metal. I think the chrome plate on the blades has reacted different then plain carbon steel would. I'd say you're lucky to not be beating yourself up over the other 79 knives. ::dang:: Clean 'er up a bit, put a little oil on it and stick it in your pocket. Doesn't look to be a total loss. ::nod::

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Re: cell disease

Post by wlf »

whitebuffalo58 wrote: I'd say you're lucky to not be beating yourself up over the other 79 knives.

WB
For sure.Ray,those Buck Creeks were notorious.Lee ,I hope to meet you in Wilmington,as I plan on being there Friday,Lord willing.

I have two large Queen made Winchester folding hunters.The one had candy stripe cell and the other has a purplish days end cell.They were on top of a cabinet away from my other knives,about a foot apart,blades open.


The candy stripe started gassing and had to have handles replaced.The trail of the sulphuric acid(?) emitted just caught about 1 inch of the other knife's blade,leaving it very dark in just that area,and only on one side.If I remember right,it was the part of the blade that was overhanging the cabinet.

I just looked at it again,seems it's got early signs too.French ivory is the only one I have confidence in....mostly. :)
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Re: cell disease

Post by rea1eye »

So what is the chance this will happen to the Delrin or composite material used in Case

knives? Does it also depend on the year produced?


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Re: cell disease

Post by philco »

Delrin is stable and does not outgas. It may on occasion oxidize but that does not damage the metal parts of the knife. I'll leave the Case question to others.
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LongBlade
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Re: cell disease

Post by LongBlade »

I think Delrin is a stable hard plastic and wouldn't worry about it gassing. As to black composite type materials - while I have seen shrinkage I have not seen any that apparently self destruct such as celluloid. Remember celluloid manufacturing used chemicals such as nitrocellulose and camphor along with alcohol and stabilizers - the latter supposedly to reduce flammability... nonetheless the sulfuric acid gas is the culprit in the self-destruction process.

I have seen black composite handles shrink but have not observed the same phenomenon as celluloid. Anybody else ever see black composition handles destroy a knife similar to celluloid?? I tend to keep the few black composition handle materials separate from my other knives as well but not sure it is necessary.

Remington used pyremite (supposedly another name for celluloid) and certainly one would recognize those handles as celluloid. However Remington also used a shiny black composition plastic and also another black composition material that was jigged to look like bone (not sure the 2 were the same but probably somewhat related)...... While I have never seen the shiny black or other black jigged composition handles self destruct they were supposedly very flammable. However I found an old Remington jack with shiny black handles that obviously was too close to some heat -see photo - looks like the handle was branded BUT note it didn't burst into flames nor did it start a self destruction celluloid type process!!! So I am speculating that those black Remington handles were rather stable despite what some say about flammability... of course some believe dark celluloid has binders that also make them more stable so maybe that is the case with Remington - just not sure... but in the American Cutlery journal article (1921) I posted on the Remington subforum note that they mention Remington made handles from "Ebon" - ebon was ebonite or a bakelite type substance - much more stable than celluloid and was actually also used in old fly reel seats in the early 1900s - I have seen them crack but not self destruct!!

Here's the photo of Remington shiny black handle with hot spot - but none the worse for it despite the intense heat!!
Remington Shiny Black Handle with Hot Spot.jpg
Interesting... I still prefer bone, MOP, wood, stag and any other natural handle material :D

Lyle - sorry for the confusion - I wish I could go to the Ohio Knife Days show but way too far from CT... I meant I would like to hear back what others say about that knife... but enjoy the show for me Lyle!!! and hope you find some nice knives ::nod:: :wink: .....
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Re: cell disease

Post by cattaraugus57 »

Just a few pics....one side is nice,the other not so nice.
The Spring has just a bit of rust and it's been that way for several years,but always in the open air.

knife7knut...wow never seen one like that Swing guard! :shock:
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Re: cell disease

Post by knife7knut »

LongBlade wrote:
I have seen black composite handles shrink but have not observed the same phenomenon as celluloid. Anybody else ever see black composition handles destroy a knife similar to celluloid?? I tend to keep the few black composition handle materials separate from my other knives as well but not sure it is necessary.

Remington used pyremite (supposedly another name for celluloid) and certainly one would recognize those handles as celluloid. However Remington also used a shiny black composition plastic and also another black composition material that was jigged to look like bone (not sure the 2 were the same but probably somewhat related)...... While I have never seen the shiny black or other black jigged composition handles self destruct they were supposedly very flammable. However I found an old Remington

Here's the photo of Remington shiny black handle with hot spot - but none the worse for it despite the intense heat!!
They didn't call it Pyremite for nothing.When it is exposed to heat it may not burst into flame but it will start to give off dense white smoke that is near impossible to extinguish.Here is a picture of a Landers,Frary,and Clark scout knife that I was fitting a new back spring to.I started grinding down the rivet and the heat generated ignited the handle.I had to submerge the knife in water before it would stop smoldering;and filled the shop with a huge cloud of smoke. Took me an hour with both fans running to clear the air. Pyrotechnics at their very best. :oops:
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Re: cell disease

Post by LongBlade »

Wow K7Knut... that must not have been fun and good thing you had water nearby... so do you think the example I showed of the black shiny black composition material seen on many Remingtons was no doubt different in terms of material? - some also call it pyremite but I don't think so - unless it had a lot of some other type of binder.. I think it also would have burst into flames if something was hot enough to melt a spot in the material... BTW - this was an early Remington stamp on my jack... not sure when they first used pyremite but I do think it was early as well.... the one other Remington I have with a jigged shiny black composition looked to be the same composition material... not sure about yours... interesting whatever the case... but I guess my point was not only flammability but outgassing of this black composition material - just have never seen it or heard of it doing the same as celluloid...
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Re: cell disease

Post by cattaraugus57 »

At the Flea Markets...90% of the time I saw a Knife with Black Handles that were shrunk up it
was a Camillus.
They must have a whole load of bad material...for a few years!
But no..never seen Black Composite Handle Gas.
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Re: cell disease

Post by edgy46 »

edgy46 wrote:
djknife13 wrote:When I enlarge the second picture it sure does look like something is eating the springs. I'm just supprised the celuloid doesn't show. I have had a few go bad but they always started in one spot and it was obvious that the celuloid had a problem before the metal actually rusted. I have about 75 old celuloid knives stored in each of two knife pacs and I check them often but in 20 years none of those have gone bad. I know I'm taking a chance. The ones I have lost were from the Remington second generation knives and they were in boxes and I caught them before they got bad a had them re-scaled in bone. I love the celuloid colors. I wonder if the white liner on your knife is also celuloid and is deteriorating under the colored scales. Anyway I feel your pain. I had a mint 1950's western cracked ice fixed blade in a mint sheath that now is stag and one that is sheeps horn that was almost mint when it went bad. Can you feel the tingle of the acid from the celuloid on your fingers after handling the knife? I actually could on one of mine. ___Dave
I have been working in heavy industry for over fifty years and my hands do not react to many chemicals anymore. I will take the knife to the Ohio Knife Days show on Friday and get some expert opinions. I will post next week with the opinions I get.

I took the knife to Knife Days Friday and asked opinions. The results were mixed, but most thought it wasn't caused by the celluloid gassing off. A dealer that I have known for years wanted to buy it, and I let it go.
Thanks to all who commented. ::handshake::
An uncontrolled accumulator. ::shrug::
Bill
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