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 Post subject: Re: The best of the best
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:08 pm 
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Elvis wrote:
TripleF wrote:
At the factory, tang stamps are done then the metal is hot, so the inside of the lettering has a rough texture and a dark appearance.


Actually that statement is not true and is a common misconception.

Think of the logistics...you put several hundred blades (actually blade blanks) in baskets into a heat treat furnace and heat them all up to cherry red. Then you have to take them out, handle each individual blade blank (while still red hot), put each one into a stamping machine (while still red hot), get the blade blank precisely aligned and stamp the tang stamp. Then again (while still red hot) get all of these stamped blade blanks back into the heat treat furnace to keep them red hot to continue the heat treating process, hoping that the process of taking them out and putting them back in did not alter the proper blade hardening in the heat treat process.

The above would be a real challenge even with today's automated equipment let alone with the manual methods of yesteryear.

I have toured the Case plant and I can assure you that the tang stamps are stamped on to the blade blanks as part of the blanking process, long before the blades even get to the heat treat ovens. And Case (and other knife companies, at least the traditional manufacturers) have always done it that way. This is verified by looking at the Case sequence of manufacturing boards and by sequence of manufacturing descriptions in the catalogs of other early knife companies.

The term "cold stamped" is actually a misnomer. It does mean that the stamp was done with the metal at room temperature, but done on a finished blade after it has been hardened and tempered. So the "cold stamped" stamp will have a different appearance than the same stamp that was done at the factory (also with the blade blank at room temperature) prior to the blade being heat hardened and tempered.

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 Post subject: Re: The best of the best
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:26 pm 
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Very good, Steve. I learned something today ::tu::

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 Post subject: Re: The best of the best
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:11 am 
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You're absoutely right Steve. The part you quoted is incorrect. The effect of stamping hardened steel is the smooth look they refer to as cold stamp. Thinking back to my Case factory visit, the tang stamp was done as it was stamped out and the nail pull cut. In fact, Season 5, Episode 24 of How It's Made shows the nail pull and the tang stamp before the blade shape is stamped out. But yes, all that was done to the fresh sheet of steel, still at room temperature before any heat treating. "Post heat treat stamping" might be a more fitting term, but "cold stamp" will probably hang around. The rest of that post still stands though. Counterfeiters have a lot of methods to try to imitate the old desireable ones and their only goal is to get your money. Our best defense is education and experience.

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 Post subject: Re: The best of the best
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:18 am 
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Steve
Thanks for the explanation.

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 Post subject: Re: The best of the best
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:38 am 
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I must state that the presence or absence of black carbon in the recesses of a tang stamp do not necessarily tell us of their authenticity or lack there of.

I'm going to show you some old pre-WWII Robeson Cutlery Co. tang stamps and one from after the war.

I do not know what they did to produce the look of the older stamps.

There is almost never any carbon in an old Robeson tang stamp.

The post-war stamp fits the accepted description of a genuine stamp with carbon inside the letters.

What changed? I don't know.

Left Click to enlarge the photos.

Charlie Noyes


Attachments:
RobesonCutleryRochesterStamp1.jpg
RobesonCutleryRochesterStamp1.jpg [ 268.51 KiB | Viewed 223 times ]
RobesonShuredegeRochesterStamp1.jpg
RobesonShuredegeRochesterStamp1.jpg [ 248.59 KiB | Viewed 223 times ]
RochesterNYStamp.jpg
RochesterNYStamp.jpg [ 369.09 KiB | Viewed 223 times ]
TerrierStamp.jpg
TerrierStamp.jpg [ 388.05 KiB | Viewed 223 times ]
BlockUSAStamp.jpg
BlockUSAStamp.jpg [ 351.93 KiB | Viewed 223 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: The best of the best
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:12 pm 
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Charlie;

I'm glad you brought that up. In fact in my experience it is more common NOT to see the black inside the letters of a tang stamp on the older knives of almost any brand.

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 Post subject: Re: The best of the best
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:27 pm 
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A lot depends upon the heat treat and polishing methods used in production.

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 Post subject: Re: The best of the best
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:12 pm 
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One other thing to consider is that some of the old factory stamps are still around, but most of the time the blades that are being stamped are already hardened, and the tools used with the stamp are not correct. So the stamps end up not looking correct, either too deep of too light. The cold stamping produces corners that are not sharp, they are more rounded.

You must hand it to MF, he has a large amount of cool old legit handles.

I looked through all 18 knives he has for sale i there is only one legit blade in the bunch. here is the item number, see if you agree 160742827508

The swedging on the small blades is also lacking on many of these knives. it's important to read the knife, not what it says.

Handle pinning (spun vs. hammered is also important) I would like to see a legit case bros or crandall with spun pins, I have never seen one. I think that spun pins came about in 1915 or so. Almost all holleys have hammered pins.

If you want to be an experienced collector, take the time to learn the difference bewteen Crocus vs glaze finish. Learn what finishs should be where on a pre WW2 american made knife. Blade etching is another good topic to study.

CH

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 Post subject: Re: The best of the best
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 5:12 pm 
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All you guys have done a wonderful job explaining so much regarding what to look for in vintage knives.
For experienced collectors this is common knowledge. For the novice collectors, this is Knife Collecting 101.
To save a lot of headache (and cash), read and re-read everything that has been thrown out here.

Paul


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 Post subject: Re: The best of the best
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:55 pm 
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knifeaholic wrote:
I have toured the Case plant and I can assure you that the tang stamps are stamped on to the blade blanks as part of the blanking process, long before the blades even get to the heat treat ovens. And Case (and other knife companies, at least the traditional manufacturers) have always done it that way. This is verified by looking at the Case sequence of manufacturing boards and by sequence of manufacturing descriptions in the catalogs of other early knife companies.


I don`t know what Case does today in modern times.

I do know I have old catalogs that show the manufacturing sequence of a pocket knife. In the catalogs and actual sequence boards I have seen in person the blades are tang stamped after the hardening, tempering and grinding process.

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 Post subject: Re: The best of the best
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:27 am 
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Miller Bro`s wrote:
knifeaholic wrote:
I have toured the Case plant and I can assure you that the tang stamps are stamped on to the blade blanks as part of the blanking process, long before the blades even get to the heat treat ovens. And Case (and other knife companies, at least the traditional manufacturers) have always done it that way. This is verified by looking at the Case sequence of manufacturing boards and by sequence of manufacturing descriptions in the catalogs of other early knife companies.


I don`t know what Case does today in modern times.

I do know I have old catalogs that show the manufacturing sequence of a pocket knife. In the catalogs and actual sequence boards I have seen in person the blades are tang stamped after the hardening, tempering and grinding process.



Dimitri;

Thanks for posting this. I have suspected that some manufacturers did just that. But I never had proof. Which manufacturers did it that way based on what you have seen?

I can only state that Case has done it the way I describe, based on their sequence boards and on my plant visit, and on descriptions of plant visits in days past, at least from the XX era forward.

What you describe, having the tang stamps done after all of the other manufacturing steps are completed, may be the explanation as to why most stamps do not have the black inside the letters. The stamps do not go deep enough since the blade is already heat treated.

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 Post subject: Re: The best of the best
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:00 am 
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Steve,

I have lots and lots of old unfinished knife blades, mostly all early American, New England area and New York manufacturers in various stages of being finished. These all pre date WWII and I am going to say about all of them were done the way I described.

I have several early 1900`s knife catalogs, the ones in particular that come to mind are the E.C. Simmons catalogs I have from the early 1920`s. Inside they describe the process with pictures. These knives at the time were made by the Walden Knife Co.

This would account for the knives like Charlie`s Robeson`s that you don`t see the black down in the tang stamp.

After WWII there may have been a change in this process by most knife companies and certainly you have seen this first hand at the Case plant, I don`t really collect many knives made after the WWII era, so I cannot say what they do as I have not studied the "modern" manufacturing process extensively.

Another thing to note while we are on the subject, there were companies like Eagle that bought factory seconds, either ground off the tang stamp themselves or bought them with the tang stamp removed, and re-stamped their name on the tangs, all done after the heat treating process. Most people think the tang is too hard and cannot be stamped after the hardening process, this is untrue, they can and were stamped after being hardened.

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 Post subject: Re: The best of the best
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:47 pm 
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I have been so angry at this person and the way he treats others with these faked knives, I contacted him a couple of years ago. This is the address I had, ecjack@windstream.net try contacting him directly and voice your concern

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 Post subject: Re: The best of the best
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:43 pm 
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On ebay you can contact the seller through contact seller or you can ask questions about the items that becomes part of the listing so that everyone can see. Why not flood him with qestions with some of the discrepacies that you see with his knives.

JWW


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 Post subject: Re: The best of the best
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:57 pm 
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jww wrote:
On ebay you can contact the seller through contact seller or you can ask questions about the items that becomes part of the listing so that everyone can see. Why not flood him with qestions with some of the discrepacies that you see with his knives.

JWW


The seller has to post the information themselves. Its not automatic.

Tim

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