The best of the best

A place to discuss & share pictures of counterfeit knives. Please be sure to alert the AAPK community if you spot one. Also make sure to ask questions if you are not certain about the authenticity of a knife you are considering buying or selling. There are plenty of great people here willing to help.
User avatar
celluloidheros
Posts: 174
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:29 am
Location: Webster, NY

The best of the best

Post by celluloidheros »

I have to give first prize to this seller. i believe that everyone of his knives is a counterfeit. The handles appear to be old, all of the blades seems to be cold stamped.

Its just that no one would believe that all are fake.

I believe that a large number of old parts from the naponoch heirs were purchased by a person with the initials RS (he is now dead). I am not sure what brands they were. i have not seen a ton of fake Naps.

Catt and queen parts also escaped into the market.

Okay so here is my first prize seller.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/myrtlefaye/m.ht ... 4340.l2562
Thanks, DC
User avatar
Iron Hoarder
Posts: 1808
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 3:03 pm
Location: Chertsey, Surrey, UK
Contact:

Re: The best of the best

Post by Iron Hoarder »

He is one of the most well known crooks on E-bay. The amazing MyrtleFake.
I measure my collection by the ton.
Whoever dies with the most tools wins......Now accepting donations.
User avatar
TripleF
Bronze Tier
Bronze Tier
Posts: 18499
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:42 pm
Location: West Central FL
Contact:

Re: The best of the best

Post by TripleF »

I woulda had no clue. I'm learning though.

Cold stamped? Does that mean stamped other than the original stamp. After looking closely all of his vintage knives have a crystal clear stamp which would make me scratch my head.

Hard to believe this seller is a faker when he has 100% Pos. feedback. Knot saying that he's knot, just makes me scratch my head.
SCOTT
HOME OF THE BRAVE! (not the scarety cats)

Colonial Knife Company History ebook:
https://gumroad.com/l/ZLDb
jww
Posts: 44
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:57 pm

Re: The best of the best

Post by jww »

What about the Case Bros. Little Valley. Surely there is someone in AARP that can look at that one and let us know. Little over 2 days to go on ebay. I'm very interested in this.

JWW
User avatar
Miller Bro's
Gold Tier
Gold Tier
Posts: 11618
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:22 pm
Location: Earth

Re: The best of the best

Post by Miller Bro's »

Those two Miller knives he has listed are about as real as this $3 bill ::nod::
Attachments
3d.jpg
AAPK Janitor
369
Knife Nut
Gold Tier
Gold Tier
Posts: 1989
Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2009 2:50 pm
Location: Southern Indiana

Re: The best of the best

Post by Knife Nut »

Iron Horder said, "He is one of the most well known crooks on E-bay."

Amen, brother.

This seller consistantly rips people off without the buyers having a clue they are being taken to the cleaners.
He has 18 knives listed currently. I would love to check in hand under magnification.
I'm not sure there is even one legit knife in the bunch! ::td::

Paul
User avatar
Elvis
Posts: 2185
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:22 pm
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio USA

Re: The best of the best

Post by Elvis »

TripleF wrote:Cold stamped? Does that mean stamped other than the original stamp. After looking closely all of his vintage knives have a crystal clear stamp which would make me scratch my head.
As well it should Scott. Cold stamping is just that. At the factory, tang stamps are done then the metal is hot, so the inside of the lettering has a rough texture and a dark appearance. A cold stamp is done to a generic blade or a blade that has had the original stamping ground off and re-stamped while the metal is cold. The result is a stamp that is "crystal clear" as you described. A good way to tell the difference if you have the knife in-hand (sometimes they will use a marker to darken the lettering), is to take a pin or needle and trace the inside of the lettering to feel the bumps that a hot stamped knife should have. If it feels smooth, put it back. ::pray:: I've also noticed that a lot of counterfeiters who make their own blades use stainlless for old Case Tested Era Knives that were never made in stainless steel (maybe kit knives). Others take old blades from inexpensive old brands and "shave" the tang, then re-stamp. If only they would use their powers for good instead of evil. ::facepalm::
User avatar
AREMINGTONSEDGE
Posts: 1903
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2012 6:01 pm
Location: MECHANICSVILLE, VIRGINIA

Re: The best of the best

Post by AREMINGTONSEDGE »

::doh:: Thanks you once again for teaching and sharing your knowledge. I never would have known!! This again and again is why I'm so proud to be a part of AAPK ::super_happy::
-LBW
Rocky, AKA- AREMINGTONSEDGE
golphin
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:46 pm

Re: The best of the best

Post by golphin »

Being very knew to the study of knives I just list the sellers on my Ebay and stay away. I don't need any knfe and if there is any question I just pass and leave it to the other buyers.
User avatar
whitebuffalo58
Posts: 2743
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 2:35 am
Location: SW MO Heart of the Ozarks

Re: The best of the best

Post by whitebuffalo58 »

I still don't get it. The kind of money these guy's pull down on most of these knives, only comes from dedicated, hardcore collectors. Not just single, high dollar bids or buy it now bids, but multiple bids, from multiple bidders. The kind of people who are members of forums and clubs. Collectors who should be well informed, if not experts in the field. I can understand 1 or maybe even 2 newbies being overzealous and running up the bids, but 20, 30 or in some cases 40 or 50 different bidders!?
I guess what i'm saying is that newbies generally don't spend that kind of scratch on knives or would even be knowledgable of the names represented, and seasoned veterans should know better. So who's buyin' 'em?

WB
User avatar
Iron Hoarder
Posts: 1808
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 3:03 pm
Location: Chertsey, Surrey, UK
Contact:

Re: The best of the best

Post by Iron Hoarder »

There are a lot of independent collectors in the world who aren't forum members or particularly sociable people either. They just buy what they like and don't think anyone would go to that much trouble to fake something. It just doesn't even occur to them. Although I'm sure there are numerous shill bidders. There are even some people in this world who collect fakes. I know of some coin and money collectors that collect forged notes and coins.
I measure my collection by the ton.
Whoever dies with the most tools wins......Now accepting donations.
bigdaddys8ball
Posts: 730
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:05 pm

Re: The best of the best

Post by bigdaddys8ball »

stuff like this is why im glad im a member of aapk i like the way everybody lets you know about any knife you have in question there is alot of verry smart people here and i want to thank everybody for all the info that they give
chetr1200c
Posts: 2487
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2008 1:44 pm
Location: factoryville, pa.

Re: The best of the best

Post by chetr1200c »

i have seen some well known aapk names on other questionable sellers winnings bids. maybe the knives that they won are genuine even tho the seller has a bad reputation.
User avatar
Miller Bro's
Gold Tier
Gold Tier
Posts: 11618
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:22 pm
Location: Earth

Re: The best of the best

Post by Miller Bro's »

Look at this one he is selling

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-BRIDGE- ... 256d064a51

It`s already up to $150 :shock:

Another questionable knife with a Razor blade and an old time company stamp, look familiar to anyone?
Attachments
1.jpg
1.jpg (30.73 KiB) Viewed 1454 times
2.JPG
2.JPG (31.01 KiB) Viewed 1454 times
3.JPG
3.JPG (26.28 KiB) Viewed 1454 times
AAPK Janitor
369
User avatar
whitebuffalo58
Posts: 2743
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 2:35 am
Location: SW MO Heart of the Ozarks

Re: The best of the best

Post by whitebuffalo58 »

I did a search of this sellers past feedbacks, as well as the feedbacks for Mr. Red Background. These guys have thousands of positive feedbacks from obviously top notch collectors. (ironically Mr. Myrtyle even has positive feedback from Mr. Red ::facepalm:: )
We've all heard the saying, You can fool all of the people, some of the time, and...so on.
That rule does not seem to apply to these guys. There was even one feedback that said, "not sure it's real, looks kinda odd", but it was still a positive feedback. :shock: Helloooo...?!
I still say these guys should be playing the lotto, they're a couple of the luckiest SOB's i've ever seen. I guess maybe sooner or later they'll get their come-up-ence. But, if you ask me, they're both long overdo.
I'm actually tempted to buy one of their fakes, just so I can land'em with their first negative.

WB
knifeaholic
Gold Tier
Gold Tier
Posts: 5124
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2006 3:41 am
Location: Central Massachusetts

Re: The best of the best

Post by knifeaholic »

Elvis wrote:
TripleF wrote:At the factory, tang stamps are done then the metal is hot, so the inside of the lettering has a rough texture and a dark appearance.
Actually that statement is not true and is a common misconception.

Think of the logistics...you put several hundred blades (actually blade blanks) in baskets into a heat treat furnace and heat them all up to cherry red. Then you have to take them out, handle each individual blade blank (while still red hot), put each one into a stamping machine (while still red hot), get the blade blank precisely aligned and stamp the tang stamp. Then again (while still red hot) get all of these stamped blade blanks back into the heat treat furnace to keep them red hot to continue the heat treating process, hoping that the process of taking them out and putting them back in did not alter the proper blade hardening in the heat treat process.

The above would be a real challenge even with today's automated equipment let alone with the manual methods of yesteryear.

I have toured the Case plant and I can assure you that the tang stamps are stamped on to the blade blanks as part of the blanking process, long before the blades even get to the heat treat ovens. And Case (and other knife companies, at least the traditional manufacturers) have always done it that way. This is verified by looking at the Case sequence of manufacturing boards and by sequence of manufacturing descriptions in the catalogs of other early knife companies.

The term "cold stamped" is actually a misnomer. It does mean that the stamp was done with the metal at room temperature, but done on a finished blade after it has been hardened and tempered. So the "cold stamped" stamp will have a different appearance than the same stamp that was done at the factory (also with the blade blank at room temperature) prior to the blade being heat hardened and tempered.
Steve Pfeiffer, author of Collecting Case Knives: Identification and Price Guide published by Krause Publications.
User avatar
tjmurphy
Posts: 11129
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:41 pm
Location: South of Cincinnati

Re: The best of the best

Post by tjmurphy »

Very good, Steve. I learned something today ::tu::
"There are none so blind as those that refuse to see"

God Bless America - Though I don't know why he would want to.
User avatar
Elvis
Posts: 2185
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:22 pm
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio USA

Re: The best of the best

Post by Elvis »

You're absoutely right Steve. The part you quoted is incorrect. The effect of stamping hardened steel is the smooth look they refer to as cold stamp. Thinking back to my Case factory visit, the tang stamp was done as it was stamped out and the nail pull cut. In fact, Season 5, Episode 24 of How It's Made shows the nail pull and the tang stamp before the blade shape is stamped out. But yes, all that was done to the fresh sheet of steel, still at room temperature before any heat treating. "Post heat treat stamping" might be a more fitting term, but "cold stamp" will probably hang around. The rest of that post still stands though. Counterfeiters have a lot of methods to try to imitate the old desireable ones and their only goal is to get your money. Our best defense is education and experience.
User avatar
edgy46
Posts: 2415
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 2:40 am
Location: S. W. Ohio

Re: The best of the best

Post by edgy46 »

Steve
Thanks for the explanation.
An uncontrolled accumulator. ::shrug::
Bill
User avatar
RobesonsRme.com
Posts: 9887
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:44 pm
Location: The Heart of Dixie.
Contact:

Re: The best of the best

Post by RobesonsRme.com »

I must state that the presence or absence of black carbon in the recesses of a tang stamp do not necessarily tell us of their authenticity or lack there of.

I'm going to show you some old pre-WWII Robeson Cutlery Co. tang stamps and one from after the war.

I do not know what they did to produce the look of the older stamps.

There is almost never any carbon in an old Robeson tang stamp.

The post-war stamp fits the accepted description of a genuine stamp with carbon inside the letters.

What changed? I don't know.

Left Click to enlarge the photos.

Charlie Noyes
Attachments
RobesonCutleryRochesterStamp1.jpg
RobesonShuredegeRochesterStamp1.jpg
RochesterNYStamp.jpg
TerrierStamp.jpg
BlockUSAStamp.jpg
DE OPPRESSO LIBER

"...Men may spurn our appeals, reject our message, oppose our arguments, despise our persons ___but they are helpless against our prayers. "

Sidlow Baxter
knifeaholic
Gold Tier
Gold Tier
Posts: 5124
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2006 3:41 am
Location: Central Massachusetts

Re: The best of the best

Post by knifeaholic »

Charlie;

I'm glad you brought that up. In fact in my experience it is more common NOT to see the black inside the letters of a tang stamp on the older knives of almost any brand.
Steve Pfeiffer, author of Collecting Case Knives: Identification and Price Guide published by Krause Publications.
User avatar
Iron Hoarder
Posts: 1808
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 3:03 pm
Location: Chertsey, Surrey, UK
Contact:

Re: The best of the best

Post by Iron Hoarder »

A lot depends upon the heat treat and polishing methods used in production.
I measure my collection by the ton.
Whoever dies with the most tools wins......Now accepting donations.
User avatar
celluloidheros
Posts: 174
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:29 am
Location: Webster, NY

Re: The best of the best

Post by celluloidheros »

One other thing to consider is that some of the old factory stamps are still around, but most of the time the blades that are being stamped are already hardened, and the tools used with the stamp are not correct. So the stamps end up not looking correct, either too deep of too light. The cold stamping produces corners that are not sharp, they are more rounded.

You must hand it to MF, he has a large amount of cool old legit handles.

I looked through all 18 knives he has for sale i there is only one legit blade in the bunch. here is the item number, see if you agree 160742827508

The swedging on the small blades is also lacking on many of these knives. it's important to read the knife, not what it says.

Handle pinning (spun vs. hammered is also important) I would like to see a legit case bros or crandall with spun pins, I have never seen one. I think that spun pins came about in 1915 or so. Almost all holleys have hammered pins.

If you want to be an experienced collector, take the time to learn the difference bewteen Crocus vs glaze finish. Learn what finishs should be where on a pre WW2 american made knife. Blade etching is another good topic to study.

CH
Thanks, DC
Knife Nut
Gold Tier
Gold Tier
Posts: 1989
Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2009 2:50 pm
Location: Southern Indiana

Re: The best of the best

Post by Knife Nut »

All you guys have done a wonderful job explaining so much regarding what to look for in vintage knives.
For experienced collectors this is common knowledge. For the novice collectors, this is Knife Collecting 101.
To save a lot of headache (and cash), read and re-read everything that has been thrown out here.

Paul
User avatar
Miller Bro's
Gold Tier
Gold Tier
Posts: 11618
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:22 pm
Location: Earth

Re: The best of the best

Post by Miller Bro's »

knifeaholic wrote:I have toured the Case plant and I can assure you that the tang stamps are stamped on to the blade blanks as part of the blanking process, long before the blades even get to the heat treat ovens. And Case (and other knife companies, at least the traditional manufacturers) have always done it that way. This is verified by looking at the Case sequence of manufacturing boards and by sequence of manufacturing descriptions in the catalogs of other early knife companies.
I don`t know what Case does today in modern times.

I do know I have old catalogs that show the manufacturing sequence of a pocket knife. In the catalogs and actual sequence boards I have seen in person the blades are tang stamped after the hardening, tempering and grinding process.
AAPK Janitor
369
Post Reply

Return to “Counterfeit Watch”