"HAMMER BRAND" is now made in CHINA!!!

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peterforce
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"HAMMER BRAND" is now made in CHINA!!!

Post by peterforce »

i got my XMAS SMKW catalog in the other day.

their catalogs are nice for alot of reasons.

one reason they are really nice is because they help to inform me of anything
that is newly being pumped out of china.

anyway TAYLOR BRANDS LLC has decided to start making the 'HAMMR BRAND" line.

IS NOTHING SACRED!!!!!!! ::td:: ::td:: ::td::

i was gonna scan the catalog page but here is the link directly to the products being made.
to really bad things.in the catalog it says "hammer brand " USA! which is false!

second thing is with the worm groove cotton sampler we may see a nice amount of fake
earlier 2nd gen schatt cotton samplers fakes start popping up!

here is link http://www.smkw.com/webapp/eCommerce/pr ... &Brand=146

let me know what you think. ::nod::
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popedandy
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Re: "HAMMER BRAND" is now made in CHINA!!!

Post by popedandy »

I ran across some on ebay the other day and, based on the price, thought they were probably being made in China. They looked pretty nice in the photos, so it will be interesting to hear how well they are made.

I probably won't buy one because I try to give my money to U.S. manufacturers. I don't have anything against foreign-made knives as long as the quality is good, but I only have so much money to spend and I try to spend it where it will put food on someone's table here in the states.
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johnnierotten
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Re: "HAMMER BRAND" is now made in CHINA!!!

Post by johnnierotten »

I probably won't buy any for the same reasons.. ::tu::
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Re: "HAMMER BRAND" is now made in CHINA!!!

Post by johnnierotten »

The barlows look alot like Bulldogs don't they?

They do have some cool looking patterns....like this half hawkbill or cotton sampler.
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wildjim
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Re: "HAMMER BRAND" is now made in CHINA!!!

Post by wildjim »

Its not a USA verses China, us verses them issue, rather the current world economic structure which is setup to use manufacturing in other countries where operating cost are lower. Thus producing a better product at lower cost in many items. Example BUCK and KA-BAR have US and foreign made knives to diversify and increase their market share to include all knife buyers. Many US companies also diversify their interests and investments and purchase foreign stock without the consumer knowing.

Knives are a small part of the world economic picture, steel may show much more diversity in foreign interests.

Consider the computer industry and its foreign interests. "Everyone" reading this forum is using foreign made equipment!

Diversity is good. . .

Its all good. . .
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knifeswapper
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Re: "HAMMER BRAND" is now made in CHINA!!!

Post by knifeswapper »

Hmm, I wonder what he sent them as a pattern for this knife....

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TM
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Re: "HAMMER BRAND" is now made in CHINA!!!

Post by TM »

wildjim wrote:Its all good. . .
There's nothing good about cheap, imported imitations that masquerade under old, established trademarks ::td::

The jigging on that 'hammer brand' doesn't hold a candle to the S&M.
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Re: "HAMMER BRAND" is now made in CHINA!!!

Post by wildjim »

TM wrote:
wildjim wrote:Its all good. . .
There's nothing good about cheap, imported imitations that masquerade under old, established trademarks ::td::

The jigging on that 'hammer brand' doesn't hold a candle to the S&M.

It is what it is and it is gone : (

As with bicycles the old French Motobecane and Gitane names are used on Asian made bicycles. The new Asian bicycles are fine but they are not the same as the old Motobecane and Gitane. I own both and either will do the task required. My 1981 Peugeot PSV10 is a collectors item now; although I would "never" sell it.

Anyway I just ordered a "bunch" of knives China, Swiss and American made from an American distributor. I am not going to worry over where the money goes rather that I get what I want and need. I got my daughter a Swiss Mora knife to stuff in her Swiss Bug Out Bag (Back Pack). We'll be using the knives, axes and machetes while camping next week rather than worrying where the come from ; )

I also ordered a "bunch" of Rough Rider Brian Yellowhorse knives; which I post some photos of next week : )
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Re: "HAMMER BRAND" is now made in CHINA!!!

Post by peterforce »

second thing is with the worm groove cotton sampler we may see a nice amount of fake
earlier 2nd gen schatt cotton samplers fakes start popping up!


this is the first time i ever quoted myself so forgive me but i just wanted to
let you fellaz know i agreed with you since my first post.

the first knife that stuck out to me was that china cotton sampler.
fakers will be pulling those cotton blades out and using them for fakes all over
the place.

now that i look even more at these TAYLOR made hammer brands
i see BULLDOG all over them. like johnnie said the barlow.
besides that the 4 blade canoe is identical.

anybody else???

also like i said just look at knifeswappers
schatt sampler.that is the exact knife im talking about. the pattern is an exact copy of the schatt sampler.
anybody know how this happens? ::shrug:: did queen or bulldog give TAYLOR rights? ::shrug::
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Re: "HAMMER BRAND" is now made in CHINA!!!

Post by Jingler »

Re: Copyright issues; I don't think China bothers with copyrights. It seems to me at least that if it looks like it will sell, they copy it, ship it to U.S., Someone markets the product(s), and then when questions like "what happened?" arise, the buck gets passed around. I read an article once in a woodwork magazine where the same thing happened to a furniture maker. Someone in China copied an original stool design of his, and then was being sold at a store chain - same design! Curves and all.
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Re: "HAMMER BRAND" is now made in CHINA!!!

Post by wildjim »

Jingler wrote:Re: Copyright issues; I don't think China bothers with copyrights. It seems to me at least that if it looks like it will sell, they copy it, ship it to U.S., Someone markets the product(s), and then when questions like "what happened?" arise, the buck gets passed around. I read an article once in a woodwork magazine where the same thing happened to a furniture maker. Someone in China copied an original stool design of his, and then was being sold at a store chain - same design! Curves and all.
China is being used for their greatest asset "people" and cheap labor. American manufacturers build plants in foreign countries that provide cheap labor. Call for computer related product support and you may get an Indian or other foreign support agent for many American companies. Even American Express and IBM use foreign support agents. It seems that sometime in the future Americans will follow another world statistic that only 2% of the population will be wealthy and the rest will live below or at the poverty level as there will be no cost of living jobs available here?
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Re: "HAMMER BRAND" is now made in CHINA!!!

Post by orvet »

wildjim wrote: It seems that sometime in the future Americans will follow another world statistic that only 2% of the population will be wealthy and the rest will live below or at the poverty level as there will be no cost of living jobs available here?
Exactly why I prefer not to buy knives made in China and why I oppose "big government."

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Re: "HAMMER BRAND" is now made in CHINA!!!

Post by johnnierotten »

I collect knives that will increase in value........I don't see that happening with any China made knives.
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Re: "HAMMER BRAND" is now made in CHINA!!!

Post by wildjim »

johnnierotten wrote:I collect knives that will increase in value........I don't see that happening with any China made knives.
I am "sure" that the Rough Rider Brian Yellowhorse and Custom file work models purchased for $15 each wholesale will increase triple in value within five years. The workmanship is astounding for the price. Someone else stated that they'd take Rough Rider over the current Case at twice the price which is what inspired me to look at them. The times they are a changing. . .
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Re: "HAMMER BRAND" is now made in CHINA!!!

Post by Luckypaul777 »

wildjim wrote:
johnnierotten wrote:I collect knives that will increase in value........I don't see that happening with any China made knives.
I am "sure" that the Rough Rider Brian Yellowhorse and Custom file work models purchased for $15 each wholesale will increase triple in value within five years. The workmanship is astounding for the price. Someone else stated that they'd take Rough Rider over the current Case at twice the price which is what inspired me to look at them. The times they are a changing. . .
wildjim, IMHO I don't see that happening; :shock: at least in my lifetime. ::doh:: I have bought 3; ::paranoid:: just to see for myself. :roll: Two Marbles and one RR toe; I have to admit the Marbles toes are better made than the RR. To each his own; but they are not for me; I can't give these away for $0.95 on eBay. :wink:


Paul
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Re: "HAMMER BRAND" is now made in CHINA!!!

Post by wildjim »

Luckypaul777 wrote:
wildjim wrote:
johnnierotten wrote:I collect knives that will increase in value........I don't see that happening with any China made knives.
I am "sure" that the Rough Rider Brian Yellowhorse and Custom file work models purchased for $15 each wholesale will increase triple in value within five years. The workmanship is astounding for the price. Someone else stated that they'd take Rough Rider over the current Case at twice the price which is what inspired me to look at them. The times they are a changing. . .
wildjim, IMHO I don't see that happening; :shock: at least in my lifetime. ::doh:: I have bought 3; ::paranoid:: just to see for myself. :roll: Two Marbles and one RR toe; I have to admit the Marbles toes are better made than the RR. To each his own; but they are not for me; I can't give these away for $0.95 on eBay. :wink:


Paul
Well Smokey Mountain Knife Works has a great investment in Rough Rider and they are a "huge" reseller. I'll defer to SMKW experience and insight ; ) as wishing and hoping and denial ain't going to change the current market trend of foreign manufacturing. . .
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Re: "HAMMER BRAND" is now made in CHINA!!!

Post by johnnierotten »

:lol: Sorry Jim......I just can't be converted!! :lol:
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Re: "HAMMER BRAND" is now made in CHINA!!!

Post by TM »

johnnierotten wrote: Sorry Jim......I just can't be converted!!

::huff:: Me Neither!!

::tounge:: :lol:
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Re: "HAMMER BRAND" is now made in CHINA!!!

Post by testcase »

johnnierotten wrote::lol: Sorry Jim......I just can't be converted!! :lol:

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Re: "HAMMER BRAND" is now made in CHINA!!!

Post by Jingler »

Me Niether too! Unless it's German made...then I will make an exception. :D
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Re: "HAMMER BRAND" is now made in CHINA!!!

Post by Aimus Moses »

wildjim wrote:
I am "sure" that the Rough Rider Brian Yellowhorse and Custom file work models purchased for $15 each wholesale will increase triple in value within five years. . . .
In five years.........your still gonna have a cheap $15 China made knife, that no one who takes quality seriously would ever own. You yourself said it best when you said "it is what it is". A person can collect that stinky brown substance and pat it into little squares and call it brownies but in the end, it's still just that stinky brown substance. :wink:
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Re: "HAMMER BRAND" is now made in CHINA!!!

Post by wildjim »

Hey I have no mission to convert anyone rather just awareness. I am new to knife collecting so the market looks different for me than to someone thats been doing it for decades.

Its taken me a life time to understand the meaning of "The Good Old Days" I like the current technology but America is changing and I believe in a transition that will lead to strife to regain American values sometime in the distant future. Either this will happen or we will loose America and its tradition and value. We need our Constitution and Bible re-instated all else will follow naturally. . .
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Re: "HAMMER BRAND" is now made in CHINA!!!

Post by Aimus Moses »

Jim, the point of my post written above is simply not every lump of coal turns into a diamond. Now honestly Jim, think about it, you have already posted about how many cheap China made knives that you've bought. If you would have taken all the money you spent on them, you could have bought at least one quality knife from any of the U.S.A. manufactures, an helped America in the process. I couldn't agree with you more on the Bible and Constitution part but, they are only taken from you if you allow it. I still have a Bible in my living room, as a matter of fact there's two there. I also have my guns and my right to use them to keep and protect my Bibles and the rest of my property.

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Re: "HAMMER BRAND" is now made in CHINA!!!

Post by wildjim »

Aimus Moses wrote:Jim, the point of my post written above is simply not every lump of coal turns into a diamond. Now honestly Jim, think about it, you have already posted about how many cheap China made knives that you've bought. If you would have taken all the money you spent on them, you could have bought at least one quality knife from any of the U.S.A. manufactures, an helped America in the process. I couldn't agree with you more on the Bible and Constitution part but, they are only taken from you if you allow it. I still have a Bible in my living room, as a matter of fact there's two there. I also have my guns and my right to use them to keep and protect my Bibles and the rest of my property.

Aimus
Its a no lose situaton for me as I purchase wholesale a Rough Rider Brian Yellowhorse knife for $15 already full retail is $29.99 its absurd to believe it will lose value. Also it was purchased from a American distributor so the money was spent in America. Try to see the big picture, think outside the box. . . ; )

Then factor in that I really don't care of the investment I just like the knife : )

I remember my father and grandfather "using" pocket knives "everyday" and then USA pocket knives were built to be used "everyday", now it seems they are built for collectors that put them on a shelve no wonder the USA quality is going down. I can only imagine my grandfather's reaction to someone putting his old pocket knife on a shelve, he'd shake his head in disbelief and laugh at them and their silly behavior. Its just a dang knife :)
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Re: "HAMMER BRAND" is now made in CHINA!!!

Post by orvet »

Rebirth of Old Brands?

We all know that old American brands that are now out of business are being made now in China. But are they really?

Let's begin by considering the Schrade products currently being made in China, since I am most familiar with them. Let's also assume for the sake of argument that the quality of the American made product and the quality of the Chinese product are identical. What is the difference other than the country of origin? I would propose that the difference is vast and go far beyond the issues of quality and place of manufacture.

Schrade knives were made in the United States for 100 years, 1904-2004. George Schrade and his brothers Jacob, Lewis and William started the company. Initially they had knives made in Germany until they completed the construction of their factory in the United States. William and Jacob but most especially George were inventors. All three held patents on automatic or switchblade knives. George especially was an inventor and entrepreneur whose patents and designs are still seen in modern day knife production. These men were so proud of their products that they used their family name on the product, i.e. Schrade.

Another entrepreneur of the knife industry, Albert Baer purchase Schrade Cut Co. in 1946. About 1947 they became associated with Imperial Knife Company. Imperial held the legal rights to use the name Hammer Brand. From 1936 onward, Imperial had made a line of shell-handled knives using the name Hammer Brand. By 1938 the shell-handled Hammer Brand Knives were the leading product of Imperial Knife Company. This was of historic significance because it was a successful product in the midst of the Great Depression. While other companies were closing due to bankruptcy Imperial created a niche in the market with a quality product that was less expensive to manufacture and could therefore be sold at a lower price. I think this was a stroke of brilliance on the part of Imperial Knife Company.

But the name Hammer Brand has even deeper historical roots. Hammer Brand is a brand name of New York Knife Company. Hammer Brand was the marking they used on their top-of-the-line products. New York Knife Company closed due to bankruptcy in 1931, early on in the Great Depression.

After the close of New York Knife Company, Imperial Knife Company secured the rights to the name Hammer Brand. Hammer Brand was synonymous with quality and was a highly recognized brand in its day. Imperial capitalized on this name recognition to make their line of shell-handled knives successful. It was a bit of marketing genius but would not have been successful had not the shell-handled knives been of good quality. I'm not sure exactly when I Imperial stopped making shell-handled knives, but I think they had stopped by about 1960. Now 50 years later you can go to a flea market almost anywhere in the United States and find shell-handled Hammer Brand knives by the dozens. Some of the knives are worse for the wear but most of them are still functional even though they may be missing handle or two.

Today in 2009 we see old American brands such as Hammer Brand, Old Timer and Uncle Henry that are being made in China. The argument rages as to whether these Chinese made knives are equal in quality to their American-made predecessors from whom they take their name.

I contend that the two products, the American made original and the current Chinese production are no more related than apples and oranges. There is no way to compare them because they are not the same product.


These knives are more different than they are alike. For a baseline of comparison let's use the Old Timer and Uncle Henry brands.

1. The majority of the Old Timer and Uncle Henry knives were made with Swinden Key construction. As far as I have been able to determine there was only one company that used the Swinden construction, and that was Imperial Schrade Corporation. The Chinese knives bearing these names are made with the common pin through bolster construction, not Swinden construction.
2. One of the major selling points for Old Timer knives is the fact that they were made with carbon steel. There are many people who use knives on a daily basis who prefer carbon steel for its edge holding ability and ease of sharpening. A quick check with the importer of these knives confirmed that all the Old Timers from China are made with 440 stainless steel.
3. The Chinese Old Timers are not even a true copy of the original American-made knives. For example one online store is selling an Old Timer in a trapper pattern that is 3-3/4 inches in length (closed). All of Schrades Old Timer trappers were either 3-7/8 inches or 4-1/8 inches in the case of the 296Y (classified by some with the Old Timers). Schrade did not make a 3-3/4 inch trapper.
4. Many of the knives from China wearing the Old Timer name are not patterns that were made by Schrade in the Old Timer brand. Many of these patterns were never even made by Schrade. Show me an American made Schrade leg knife, dirk, toothpick, doctors knife, and cigar whittler or sowbelly stockman. These patterns are made in China for most brands being imported. Just because they put a Schrade shield on the knife, does not make it a Schrade.
5. Then there is the handle material, ram horn, red marble, desert ironwood, etc. These were not handle materials that were commonly used by Schrade, if they were ever used at all. Even the Delrin used on the Chinese Old Timers do not look the same as the American made Old Timers. The practiced eye of the Schrade collector can pick out the Chinese made knives because subtle differences in the color and texture of the handles.

So we have knives that are constructed differently, of different materials, in different sizes, in different patterns that even look different. The only think they have in common with the original is the name.
So what are we really seeing in the phenomenon of the reemergence of knives bearing the old American brand names? Are we seeing the rebirth of old American knife brands? I think not.

What we are really seeing is one of the less auspicious moments of capitalism. When we have people who claim to love this country and to love the rich cutlery heritage that it represents, that choose to produce products overseas in the home of our traditional enemies, all the while enriching the coffers of our enemies while depleting our own treasury, something is terribly wrong.

The fact that they try to sell these to collectors as a Schrade, Marbles, New York Knife, or what ever the brand may be, is unconscionable. The fact that some people actually buy them to “collect” boggles the mind!

It is like going to Korea and having Hyundai build a car and calling it a Packard, then expecting them to be excepted into all the Packard clubs in America!

There is nothing in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and he who considers price only is that man's lawful prey.
– John Ruskin, English critic, essayist, & reformer (1819 - 1900)

That is the way I see it,
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