What's wrong with the knives made in China?

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Re: What's wrong with the knives made in China?

Post by orvet »

Those of us who served in Vietnam or Korea or nearly any US military action since WWII have (whether we know it or not) faced Chinese weapons and dodged Chinese steel.

As a Vietnam veteran, please tell me why I or anyone other veteran of the US military should buy Chinese knives?
bonehead wrote:Forget about politics guys,
Sorry, no can do. There are 52,000 names on The Wall in Washington D.C. that won't allow me to forget politics!
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Re: What's wrong with the knives made in China?

Post by orvet »

Oman wrote:
Phil Gibbs wrote:While I certainly agree with the prevailing opinion of this thread to date emotionally, politically (& historically :mrgreen: ); I must admit that from my personal perspective, I believe we are very much missing some harsh realities if we wish to have an honest & painfully frank discussion regarding the state of the American & Chinese cutlery industries.

I hesitate to share my humble assessments however, as I find some of these opinions to be quite depressing. ::barf::
Huh?

There are few people more qualified to speak on this topic than Phil Gibbs.
IIRC, Phil was grew up in the cutlery industry.
He was one of the reasons Camillus survived as long as it did.

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Re: What's wrong with the knives made in China?

Post by stancaiman »

jrayyy wrote:I'm sold on American made knives and on all the reasons why. I would just be curious to hear from others about how you
see the differences between American made knives like Case or Bear and Rough Rider knives. Where are the differences?

Thanks!
sometimes china's product are well made but in the majority of case they are only bad copy- a other thing for my point of view is that i don't want to give money to a country where there is no liberty it's all
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Re: What's wrong with the knives made in China?

Post by Just Plain Dave »

While I very much like Carbon Steel or Case CV as my knife steel, I will not subject my better knives to bumping around with change or my pocket flashlight.

I find Rough Rider to have pretty nice stainless that comes and generally stays QUITE sharp.

I have a Chinese made Scout knife from Cabelas that gets a LOT of use. Seems to be quite similar steel wise.
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Re: What's wrong with the knives made in China?

Post by gino »

This is always a divided subject. both sides have merit to some extent.
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Re: What's wrong with the knives made in China?

Post by keithw »

Guys,

All jrayyy asked for was opinions on the differences between American and Chinese knives. It seems like every time the subject is brought up, the link is high-jacked by people screaming about China. He didn't advocate buying a bushel basket full. I don't like the current situation either... but, we sure aren't acting like people who value differing opinions.

My opinion, if I'm allowed to express it, is that sadly the Chinese have improved their quality significantly over the past few years, to the point of equalling American knife companies. I've bought some disappointing Case, Bear and Queen knives over the last couple of years. Of course the Chinese knives will probably never have any collector value, but they can be had for a fraction of the price.

I type this note on an American computer made up of Chinese components, illuminated by a lamp made in China, which is sitting on a desk made by a now-defunct American furniture company, while sitting in a desk chair made in China, wearing sweatpants, underwear, socks and T-shirt made in China. My city and state have been ravaged by unemployment brought on in large part by our indifference. So please excuse me if I don't get too worked up about someone contemplating buying an $8 Chinese pocketknife. I think we have bigger fish to fry.
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Re: What's wrong with the knives made in China?

Post by Roush428r »

keithw wrote:Guys,

All jrayyy asked for was opinions on the differences between American and Chinese knives. It seems like every time the subject is brought up, the link is high-jacked by people screaming about China. He didn't advocate buying a bushel basket full. I don't like the current situation either... but, we sure aren't acting like people who value differing opinions.

My opinion, if I'm allowed to express it, is that sadly the Chinese have improved their quality significantly over the past few years, to the point of equalling American knife companies. I've bought some disappointing Case, Bear and Queen knives over the last couple of years. Of course the Chinese knives will probably never have any collector value, but they can be had for a fraction of the price.

I type this note on an American computer made up of Chinese components, illuminated by a lamp made in China, which is sitting on a desk made by a now-defunct American furniture company, while sitting in a desk chair made in China, wearing sweatpants, underwear, socks and T-shirt made in China. My city and state have been ravaged by unemployment brought on in large part by our indifference. So please excuse me if I don't get too worked up about someone contemplating buying an $8 Chinese pocketknife. I think we have bigger fish to fry.

And that pretty much sums it up folks!

The only caveat I'll add is that most Chinese knives we see in the U.S. are junk because that's primarily where the market is. Can the Chinese build knives comparable in quality to Case, et al? Absolutely! Would the flea market dealers buy them by the case at $25 each instead of $2.50? No!

Dalian is to China what Seki is to Japan. Check out some of the higher end knives from there if you want to see what Chinese cutlers can do.
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Re: What's wrong with the knives made in China?

Post by testcase »

bonehead wrote:Forget about politics guys,

The question was what are the differences? Of the knives themselves.... I would certainly like to know too! I have a couple that seem to be of equal quality... What can we say in this area?
Forget politics? it ain't politics, its fact.

Buying Chinese Knives hurt the US, plain and simple. When you purchase a knife you decide, "Do I buy from a US maker or a country bent on the subjugation of democracy? Do I help end one more US industry'
IF you can live with that, go ahead.

It is a small gesture in the big scheme of things, but it is one area in which we still have a choice. I collect knives, and I am by no means a rich man, but I would rather have one US made knife in my collection than ten Chicom cheapies.
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Re: What's wrong with the knives made in China?

Post by testcase »

keithw wrote:Guys,

All jrayyy asked for was opinions on the differences between American and Chinese knives. It seems like every time the subject is brought up, the link is high-jacked by people screaming about China. He didn't advocate buying a bushel basket full. I don't like the current situation either... but, we sure aren't acting like people who value differing opinions.

My opinion, if I'm allowed to express it, is that sadly the Chinese have improved their quality significantly over the past few years, to the point of equalling American knife companies. I've bought some disappointing Case, Bear and Queen knives over the last couple of years. Of course the Chinese knives will probably never have any collector value, but they can be had for a fraction of the price.

I type this note on an American computer made up of Chinese components, illuminated by a lamp made in China, which is sitting on a desk made by a now-defunct American furniture company, while sitting in a desk chair made in China, wearing sweatpants, underwear, socks and T-shirt made in China. My city and state have been ravaged by unemployment brought on in large part by our indifference. So please excuse me if I don't get too worked up about someone contemplating buying an $8 Chinese pocketknife. I think we have bigger fish to fry.

So where better, if not 8.00 knives collected for a HOBBY, something not essential, to draw the line? Why not start where we still have a choice?
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Re: What's wrong with the knives made in China?

Post by bonehead »

testcase wrote:
bonehead wrote:Forget about politics guys,

The question was what are the differences? Of the knives themselves.... I would certainly like to know too! I have a couple that seem to be of equal quality... What can we say in this area?
Forget politics? it ain't politics, its fact.

Buying Chinese Knives hurt the US, plain and simple. When you purchase a knife you decide, "Do I buy from a US maker or a country bent on the subjugation of democracy? Do I help end one more US industry'
IF you can live with that, go ahead.

It is a small gesture in the big scheme of things, but it is one area in which we still have a choice. I collect knives, and I am by no means a rich man, but I would rather have one US made knife in my collection than ten Chicom cheapies.
Anyone who feels so strongly about this might as well toss out half his Necessities, forget about collectable luxuries. The question is: " I would just be curious to hear from others about how you see the differences between American made knives like Case or Bear and Rough Rider knives"
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Re: What's wrong with the knives made in China?

Post by jerryd6818 »

Every time this subject comes up, the :) and the :evil: have at it. I couldn't help but notice that since ole jrayyy tossed this grenade into the hooch, he hasn't come back around to join the "discussion".

jrayyy, how about a more clear definition of "Where are the differences?" What are you looking for? Are you hoping to spark a technical discussion - fit, finish, blade quality, handle quality, etc? Help me out here. I'm not too clear on your goal for this thread. ::shrug::

There are three subjects that are sure to stir up some dust - politics, religion and Chinese knives.
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Re: What's wrong with the knives made in China?

Post by philco »

jerryd6818 wrote:Every time this subject comes up, the :) and the :evil: have at it. I couldn't help but notice that since ole jrayyy tossed this grenade into the hooch, he hasn't come back around to join the "discussion".
Can you really blame him ? I've been where he is and I can tell you from personal experience it is not a fun place to be.
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I'll say this about the Chinese made knives.........As in most everything else, you get pretty much what you pay for. If you buy a $10 Chinese knife you should not expect it to compare in quality to a Case or Queen. If you up the price you can get a well made knife with good quality steel from Chinese manufacturers.

We as knife collectors tend to forget that more knives are sold to users than to collectors. We live today in a Walmart economy where the American standard of living is being kept propped up by cheap imported goods. Most knife buyers (non-collecters) are going to use and abuse the knife they buy till they break it or lose it then go buy another one. A $10 Rough Rider will serve the same function for that person as a $100 Case and he will have little if any appreciation for the difference between the two other than the price.

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Re: What's wrong with the knives made in China?

Post by jrayyy »

Thank you Phil and thanks all of you who responded to this thread. If anyone's is up for it could we discuss the reasons why one knife made in America will cost $79.00 and another knife made in China will cost $8.00? (with free shipping)

I just gave my grandson his first pocketknife, a Case of course, and he loves it and would sleep with it if his dad would let him. One day he is going to ask me this same question; where is the difference between them? Let's say we have on a table in front of us a Case peanut with red bone handles,---and beside it a Rough Rider with red bone handles. Now, can we go down the list?

- Bolsters - nickel silver.
- Liners - brass.
- Handles - bovine bone.
- Blade steel - polished 440 stainless
- Pins - brass.
- Shield - nickel silver.
- Fit & finish - ?
- Appearance - ?

Where is the 71$ difference?
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Re: What's wrong with the knives made in China?

Post by jrayyy »

Thank you Phil and thanks all of you who responded to this thread. If anyone's is up for it could we discuss the reasons why one knife made in America will cost $79.00 and another knife made in China will cost $8.00? (with free shipping)

I just gave my grandson his first pocketknife, a Case of course, and he loves it and would sleep with it if his dad would let him. One day he is going to ask me this same question; where is the difference between them? Let's say we have on a table in front of us a Case peanut with red bone handles,---and beside it a Rough Rider peanut with red bone handles. Now, can we go down the list?

- Bolsters - nickel silver.
- Liners - brass.
- Handles - bovine bone.
- Blade steel - polished 440 stainless
- Pins - brass.
- Shield - nickel silver.
- Fit & finish - ?
- Appearance - ?

Where is the 71$ difference?
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Re: What's wrong with the knives made in China?

Post by philco »

Some of the obvious differences would be cost of labor, cost of adhearing to OSHA and EPA regulations(much laxer or non existant in China) , cost of benefits (or the lack thereof) provided to workforce, operational overhead such as unemployment insurance, liability insurance, product liability insurance etc. etc. Cost of raw materials used and or quality level of same. It really is not a level playing field.
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Re: What's wrong with the knives made in China?

Post by orvet »

One of the main differences in the price is the labor used to produce the knife.
In America we have (had) a free market system. The people who own Case actually own their company.
They are free to employ who they wish and pay them the going rate (minimum wage, etc figures in here as well). In most labor markets a skilled worker makes far more than the minimum wage.
-VS-
In China, with their mixture of Communism and Capitalism, a private individual may own a company or part of it (as I understand their system) but the government may own the other part of the company. In either case the government has much more control over the company and what they produce.

In the USA, the company (Case) pays the worker. They hire and fire workers, or lay them off temporally as they need them, but Case pays the worker.
-VS-
In China the company may pay the worker, but the government may pay part or all of the salary.
Thus artificially lowering the cost to produce the product (the knife in this case).

In the USA, workers are free to come and go from jobs at will
-VS-
in China, prisoners are often assigned to a factory to produce goods as part of their prison sentence.
This further lowers the cost of producing the knife.
BTW, who is likely to be the best knife maker, the Case employee who likes his job and has worked at it for 25 years, or the prisoner who is assigned to assemble knives as part of their prison sentence?

Who do you suppose has more pride in his work, the 25-year Case employee or the worker or prisoner assigned to a knife factory?
Which of those do you suppose will produce a better knife?

The main difference I think is the workers themselves. IMHO, free men & women who work at a job of their own free choice and take some pride in their work will most likely produce a better product.

The main difference is freedom. Case makes a knife using citizens who have the freedom to quit and start their own company. This has often happened historically in the knife industry in America. In China the worker is a subject of the state and must do as the state tells them, and must work for what the state will pay.

IMHO, citizens make better knives than subjects. It is a matter of FREEDOM. I guess it all depends on what system you want your money to support. And if you don’t believe that your purchases make a difference……then there is nothing I, or anyone else can say to change your mind.

See you all in a couple weeks,
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Re: What's wrong with the knives made in China?

Post by jerryd6818 »

We as knife collectors tend to forget that more knives are sold to users than to collectors. We live today in a Wal-Mart economy where the American standard of living is being kept propped up by cheap imported goods. Most knife buyers (non-collectors) are going to use and abuse the knife they buy till they break it or lose it then go buy another one. A $10 Rough Rider will serve the same function for that person as a $100 Case and he will have little if any appreciation for the difference between the two other than the price.

The issue in a nutshell. Well said Phil. Of course ya'll know by now I have an opinion on everything and can't leave well enough alone.
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I don't know about where you live, but around here you'd be hard pressed to find a Case knife for sale anyplace in town (a town of 150,000 so it's not Podunk Kansas). I don't recall ever seeing Queen on display and of course, no Schrades are available. In the mid-90s you could buy an American made Buck at Walmart but they disappeared from there sometime before 2000. It's been within the past ten years that the Case display disappeared from the local hardware store. Lowe's had a Case display but they took it down about five or six years ago. I think you can still buy a new Case at Gander Mountain but I wouldn't swear to it.

All that said, without a full on search (which is not going to happen in most situations), around here the only choice the non-collectors have for a new purchase of an EDC is what's on the shelves and racks (because that's what's convenient) of Wal-Mart, Lowe's, Home Depot, Menard's and some of the sporting goods stores, which is going to put a Chinese knife in their pocket. They have no knowledge of what knives are made where and even if they are knowledgeable about country of origin and if they care, most don't have a clue where to find a Case, Queen or Utica.

As Phil said, the average Joe doesn't think like a collector. He just wants a cheap knife that cuts stuff. Hell, I carried a little 2 3/4" utility knife for quite a while. Cheap, lite and easy to sharpen (just change the blade and it's razor sharp again), it did 99% of my cutting chores.

I don't care for the Chinese knives for reasons that have little to do with the knives themselves. Aside from that issue, I think, we as collectors/accumulators, get carried away with our expectations and the knife aspect of our EDC becomes more important to us than the practical reason we carry.

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Re: What's wrong with the knives made in China?

Post by jrayyy »

From the buyer's point of view, looking at the two knives, what makes the one knife worth $79 and the other $8?
Where is the $71 worth of difference?

I know that many of you are speaking from your heart on this topic, and I respect that. Don't you think it's interesting that out of 31 replies to this question not 1 specific hard difference has been pointed out between the actual knives themselves. The closest we came was a comment about the quality of the blades of the China-made knives. But aren't Rough Rider blades made of 440 stainless, and don't they have the reputation of an extremely sharp blade?

So what am I saying? If we are willing to pay $71 more for a knife that has very few actual qualitative benefits over the $8 imported clone, doesn't that put the ball back in the court of our American knifemakers to build more cost-efficiency into their knives and sell their knives to us at more competitive prices?

In other words, is there $71 difference between them? It appears that most of the difference is more the intangible kind like emotional and political than actual tangible differences in the hardware, materials and workmanship.
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Re: What's wrong with the knives made in China?

Post by jerryd6818 »

jrayyy wrote:From the buyer's point of view, looking at the two knives, what makes the one knife worth $79 and the other $8?
Where is the $71 worth of difference?

I know that many of you are speaking from your heart on this topic, and I respect that. Don't you think it's interesting that out of 31 replies to this question not 1 specific hard difference has been pointed out between the actual knives themselves. The closest we came was a comment about the quality of the blades of the China-made knives. But aren't Rough Rider blades made of 440 stainless, and don't they have the reputation of an extremely sharp blade?

So what am I saying? If we are willing to pay $71 more for a knife that has very few actual qualitative benefits over the $8 imported clone, doesn't that put the ball back in the court of our American knife makers to build more cost-efficiency into their knives and sell their knives to us at more competitive prices?

In other words, is there $71 difference between them? It appears that most of the difference is more the intangible kind like emotional and political than actual tangible differences in the hardware, materials and workmanship.
I see your point. I really do. BUT where are American companies supposed to find $71 in savings when making a knife? Not all the $71 difference in price of your example knife (I don't know where you got the $79 dollar figure but I'm guessing it's an arbitrary figure pulled out of the air) is labor and materials. A good portion of the $71 difference comes straight from the government coffers of the country of origin (usually China in the current discussion). Do you expect the U.S. to cough up those kinds of subsidies for the knife industry, the clothing industry, the automobile industry, the tool and manufacturing equipment industry, etc, etc? Subsidies on top of the social programs already in place and in addition, those social programs the liberals are asking for? Do you really believe any country can manufacture a quality knife, with shipping and profit margin built in, that can be sold for eight bucks?

Do you think Schrade wanted to go bankrupt while trying to compete?

Right now, one of the least expensive American made knives is manufactured by Utica. They run from $18.95 for a little single blade coping knife with composite handles to $32.95 for a three blade stockman with jigged bone handles. Those are the prices at their retailer so you know Utica sells them to KnifeCenter for less because everyone who touches them has to make some profit. I've never seen one but according to those on this forum that have purchased them, they're a well made knife. That's the no subsidy, no forced labor, quality material, as close to straight to the consumer as you can get equivalent of your Chinese made $8 knife. Ask any number cruncher at Utica Cutlery Company and I'm sure they will tell you there's no fat on those prices.

If you want to buy $8 Chinese knives, that's your privilege. As an American citizen, you are free to spend your money any way you want. Just don't ask me to jump on that bandwagon. They're addicting because they're cheap. I own a dozen Chinese knives and admittedly they are better made than a knife made in India, Pakistan, Mexico or Singapore but that doesn't make me want to buy more.
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Re: What's wrong with the knives made in China?

Post by Knife Nut »

I don't own a knife that was made in China....never have....never will!

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Re: What's wrong with the knives made in China?

Post by gino »

Ditto KN
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Re: What's wrong with the knives made in China?

Post by Railsplitter »

jrayyy wrote:From the buyer's point of view, looking at the two knives, what makes the one knife worth $79 and the other $8?
Where is the $71 worth of difference?
It has to do with the currency exchange rate. My figures are not exact so take this with a grain of salt.
The U.S. dollar is worth about six times as much in China. Six dollars in China is worth about one dollar in the U.S.
A Chinese made knife that costs $8 in the U.S. would cost you the equivilant of about $48 if you bought it in China.
China spends more money than it seems to make their knives. It just doesn't seem like it to us because they cost so little here.
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Re: What's wrong with the knives made in China?

Post by jrayyy »

Thank you Jerry, Sable and Gino. I think you put this one to bed.

Thanks to all!
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Re: What's wrong with the knives made in China?

Post by bluerush55 »

Hey Hey and WOW
I like lead myself....
Nice knife there ::ds::
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Re: What's wrong with the knives made in China?

Post by Elvis »

Hard to do, but putting politics aside, a quick 2 cents on the Chinese knives I've seen.......they are blatant copies. Flat out design rip-offs down to the centimeter. Pretty shameless really.
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