Remington Knife Question

[just bob]

Found this old knife along with some others in a box. Clearly stamped Remington, but is this the Hindenburg and Titanic on the knife? The name Bremen is on the ship but I thought maybe that was the name of the artist? Any help appreciated.

[Miller Bro's]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Bremen_(1928)

[msteele6]

The other side appears to be a Zeppelin, maybe a knife made to represent German transportation in the '20's and 30's? Is there something written on the master?

The knife itself appears to be a fantasy, but I don't recall seeing it before. Maybe someone knows the genesis of the knife,that would be interesting to hear.

JMO

[just bob]

Here is some more info I found on the knife since Dimitri's post. Apparently the blade is etched Remington and has Germany on the other side. There is something on the zeppelin but the print is so small and worn I can't make it out.

http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/v ... remen-ship

[Miller Bro's]

If it is marked Germany on the other side it is definitely a reproduction just like those fake NeHi soda leg knives, originally the back side had a very light etch marked Germany.

However just like the leg knives some of these may have been originally made by Remington I cannot tell by just looking at the pictures it will have to be examined in hand.

On the subject of the Zeppelin, I believe it was not the Hindenburg but the last air ship made the LZ130 Graf Zeppelin, it's last flight was on August 20, 1939. It was later dismantled during WWII. Remington got out of the knife business in 1939.

[btrwtr]

Remington never used a stamp with the stylized print that you see on this knife. Like msteele6 said, fantasy knife. Cool knife and subject matter but not an old original Remington knife.

[AREMINGTONSEDGE]

Well feller's, I'm going to step out from the crowd and tell you I think that this knife is legit. This is not the first time I have seen that specific lettering of the "European" Remington tang stamp. All were stamped on knives made by Remington or for Remington by companies based in Europe. Remembering that Samuel Remington,(second eldest son of 3 sons of E. Remington) moved to and lived in Paris in the late 1800's and opened many manufacturing plants under the Remington name and was the president of the Remington company in Europe. I believe that in the early 1900's Remington produced cutlery in Europe near or at the same time producing their cutlery in the U.S. and in lieu of this allowed them to solicit and hire many of the finest German cutler's for their U.S. facilities. IMHO I have learned not to be so quick to toss out the baby with the bath water. Hang on to that knife it may yet prove itself of interest. The Tang stamps we are use to seeing are stamped on cutlery manufactured in the U.S. and were specific to illustrate true Remington value, craftsmanship and guide the customer in reordering quality cutlery.

In addition: The tang stamps on Nehi knives and such that were forgeries from the original Remingtons, were designed in their tang stamps to looked real to the novice but notably different to the trained eye. The tang stamps in discussion are completely unique and different from the U.S. Remington tang stamps and from those I've seen from Europe are the same each time in the script lettering style.

[msteele6]

My understanding of Remington's connection with German cutlers was that when Remington started manufacturing cutlery c.1920, they essentially hired Boker's workforce under their superintendent (a Mr. Tillmans, if memory serves) to staff their new manufacturing facility.

I was under the impression that this was the Boker workforce that was located in New Jersey. I do know that many of the patterns and features of Boker's knives ended up at Remington, including the famous acorn shield.

I can't recall seeing the tang stamp used on this knife on any American made Remington knife. I don't have access to my references at present but I also don't recall seeing this stamp in either Stewart and Ritchie or Goins.

As I said above, it would be interesting to learn the genesis of this particular knife.

JMO

[AREMINGTONSEDGE]

This is what I love about AAPK! Love the open discussion and shared info. If memory serves, we have seen some very different and unique Remington etching and varieties in Remington tang stamping that are not illustrated in the reference material stated, yet they were authentic none the less. Goin's and such references are amazing "guides" but are not the final say as to what is legit in the market. Stewart & Richie stated in their preference that they in no way captured "all" the variety of Remington knives produced. What I am saying is it is possible that this knife was produced for Remington or by Remington in the European market and it could be legit and substantiate though research. The frame is correct, the blades are correct, the patina is correct the topic of interest on the front and back scales are correct for the time period. The tang stamp is correct for other knives that I have seen with the same "German " script lettering of Remington. For me, I see too many pros for it than against it. I too know I have references to support my opinion and will try to find those needles in my reference haystack. Hang on to the knife.LOL this could get fun!

As a side note, it was indeed in 1919 that Remington Arms hired C.W. Tillmanns and other Solingen trained cutlers from Boker and Valley Forge and yes a lot of influence was had on pattern design at Remington. I have that article from Nov. 2009 Knife World.

Side note 2: In part I believe that not only did Boker make a speciality knife Wildlife series for Remington beginning in 1996 I think their Solingen factories made speciality knives for them in the 1920's and 1930's and exported them to the United States.

[btrwtr]

Yes, A very interesting discussion. I am staying tuned.

[msteele6]

A knife with the same Zeppelin casting has shown up on eBay. It is listed as being made by D. Rood. The Zeppelin is marked LZ-127. It appears that the handle is the same on both sides (no ship scene), however, the casting appears to be identical. I have no idea who D. Rood is, maybe someone familiar with German knives can enlighten us.

[AREMINGTONSEDGE]

Can you copy the URL and post? Does it say authorized reproduction Germany? Thanks!

[AREMINGTONSEDGE]

I have uncovered some information of interest and in reference to " the second knife in discussion " the LZ-127 knife.

"The Reichszeugmeisterei der NSDAP or RZM was the quality control office of the NSDAP. All firms wishing to manufacture items for NSDAP formations or organisations had to apply for an RZM number. This number was stamped on most items made by the firm and quality was strictly controlled by the RZM office. If a firm did not live up to quality expectations, it could lose its RZM number and hence its permission to manufacture these items".

The NSDAP/AO was the Foreign Organization branch of the National Socialist German Workers Party (NSDAP). AO is the abbreviation of the German compound word Auslands ...


The name D Rood is not the full name of the person. Identification code is as follows: M9/84 Gebrüder Rood, Solingen. M9 code is for "Tinnies" which are military pins and badges in this case were made for Hitler and the 3rd Reich. 84 is the # of the person/firm in the RZM code list. per the code the "D" was a code for the uniform section Rood is the last name or company name. see URL below

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?p=1110668

Next is information that indicates that Rood also worked with a cutlery company called Gebr. Weyersberg making knives. See Url below.

http://strazors.com/uploads/images/arti ... rsberg.pdf

The last show of information to lend support is a knife on eBay and an auction site with the Tang stamped Gebr Rood Solingen and D Rood Solingen.. See URL below

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Coca-Cola-Adver ... 7675.l2557

https://new.liveauctioneers.com/item/8612205

After reading I hope this sheds some light. I think however this is quite different than what our original discussion involved as the tang stamps are very different.

Post Script note: LZ 127 ZEPPELIN were the most important and successful kind of Zeppelin airships ever. They were real historic mile-stones which were never reached again. Between 1900 and 1938 the Zeppelin Company GmbH constructed more than 100 airships in 27 different variations. The biggest one was in 1938 LZ 129 with a length of 245m, dimension of 41.2m and volume of 200,000m³. Four Daimler diesel engines with 4,200 PS moved the airship with a highest speed on 131 km/hour and a distance reach of 12,000km to Japan, North and South America for transport of passengers, post and freight.

Adding one more URL because I think it is informative and descriptive pertaining to the LZ-127.

http://ai4fr.com/main/page_militaria__c ... knife.html

[Miller Bro's]

I found the knife msteele6 is referring to on eBay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/rare-old-German ... SwA3dYZudw

Seller's description:

Rare old German D Rood 2 blade Graf Zeppelin jack knife. Side cast in exceptional detail. Grtaf Zeppelin LZ 127 visible on the air ship. Measures 3 3/8" long. Rust proof blades marked D. Rood. Excellent condition.

Pictures

[Miller Bro's]

Thanks for posting the information you found Rocky

Here's the picture of the knife you provided a link to.

[AREMINGTONSEDGE]

Thanks MB, I think it was good information and I personally learn stuff I didn't know and padded my reference library nicely.

Aside from the opportunity I had to learn, I think the current knife in discussion is far from the previous Remington tang discussion notwithstanding the zeppelin topic on the scale.

[msteele6]

It's not just a Zeppelin topic, in my estimation the stamping is actually identical down to the number of windows in the buildings.

JMO

[AREMINGTONSEDGE]

I will agree that the zeppelin scale casting is the same but for me there is a lot of difference in the knives. What is more interesting for me is what appears to be two zeros stamped in the blade,( I don't see this as part of an etching) as noted circled in red. I believe that this knife is correct for the era and topic matter among others things as stated before and with possible support from information recently posted. I would like to agree to disagree with you on the maker of this knife for now...still looking deeper in research for clues and answers to say one way or another if for no one but for myself. I have seen this same Remington stamping on several older knives but for now I am struggling to find them...But I am trying and I am persistent. Some might say...a bit hard headed! LOL

[AREMINGTONSEDGE]

Sharing... according to knife world's KASTOR Tang Stamps http://ep.yimg.com/ty/cdn/knifeworld/kastorlist.pdf number 258 on the list...from 1933-1940 Kastor/Camillus and other companies made an advertising knife for Remington with a "straight line Script lettering tang stamp". Does anyone have an example of this knife? Could our discussion knife be an example of this knife? could this knife have been made in the U.S. or in Germany and exported to the U.S? Was this the beginning ties with Camillus and Remington's joint knife ventures? Still searching...

[msteele6]

I'm at a bit of a loss as to understanding why the script "Remington" referenced in this list doesn't refer to the common "straight line Remington" contract knives as the author seems to imply by his use of "straight line" in his description, in which case these knives are not uncommon (I own a couple myself).

[AREMINGTONSEDGE]

Trying to draw a possible conclusion that, "It may be possible...that one of several cutlery companies such as Boker and or A. Kastor, (whom both at the time having factories in Solingin Germany and in the United States) were under contract by Remington for importing and exporting cutlery for sale in Germany and or the U.S.. That possibly the knife mentioned was tang stamped as it was in Solingin Germany by said company or another company that at present is unknown but at that time was authorized by Remington to produce a speciality knife celebrating the milestone marvels of transportation such as portrayed on the knife scales by the zeppelin and Bremen.

The reference to the Straight line script was only to show that A. Kastor made knives for Remington in that same time period.

[AREMINGTONSEDGE]

Interesting letter from Remington correspondence sharing intentions to start cutlery division; circa. July 31st,1919.

Please note this letter is a copy that I pulled from one of my Remington journals.

[msteele6]

Interesting letter.