Uncle Henry LB7 Lock-Back / Buck 110 Copy?

Schrade Cutlery Company was founded in 1904 by George Schrade, and his brothers Jacob and William Schrade. In 1946 Imperial Knife Associated Companies, (IKAC; an association of Ulster Knife Co and Imperial Knife Co) purchased controlling interest in Schrade Cut Co and changed the name to Schrade Walden Cutlery. In 1973 the name was changed to Schrade Cutlery. In 2004 Schrade closed due to bankruptcy.

This forum is dedicated to the knives that are the legacy of this company. This forum is not the place to discuss the replica knives currently being imported using the Schrade name.
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orvet
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Re: Uncle Henry LB7 Lock-Back / Buck 110 Copy?

Post by orvet »

Dave Thinkstoomuch wrote: Carbon LB7? The LB series were always stainless. LB1, LB3, LB5, LB7, LB8 all stainless, always. There were no early carbon versions (unless a sample knife or two that never made it to production are out there).

People who have collected Schrades for more than a few years rarely use words like “always” and “never” when talking about Schrade. Schrade has this habit of doing the unexpected. I checked with LT, Richard Langston, who has collected Schrade for more than 50 years and has one of the largest Schrade collections in the world, (one of the top 3 or 4 largest collections). He said he remembers seeing some carbon steel LB7. They weren’t common, but they are out there.

Dave Thinkstoomuch wrote: Springs? I'm 99.99% sure that Schrade never made a single LB7 with two flat springs. This configuration showed up first in 1981 on the LB1. Later the LB5 did indeed make this change so early LB5 knives with the two-line stamping are of superior construction to the later LB5s. The 3OT, 5OT, 6OT all used the double springs but the LB7 never did. It always had the separate spacer/retainer and spring. The LB1 always used double springs I believe. I can't recall the guts of all LB3 vintages so I won't comment on them. Dale, I think you are picturing the guts of the 6OT in your head not an LB7.
Well, I can say with authority you are 100% wrong. I have repaired a number of LB7s with the flat springs in them. I have a flat spring LB7 setting on my desk as I type this.


As regards Buck-
I managed a retail cutlery store for about 10 years in the 1980s and early 1990s. We actually had customers complain they had dropped their Buck knife on a rock and had the blade break. It is possible to have steel so hard that it is not good for the average knife user. We also had problems in that time frame with Buck knives chipping. As I recall Bucks then were around 60 or so in the Rockwell C scale then, but I don’t remember the exact number. These problems may have played into Buck’s decision to go with 420HC.

You seem to have a low opinion of the motives of Buck, (that they are only motivated by profit). I think if you ever had the chance to visit with Chuck Buck you would change your opinion. Chuck is one of the most principled and honorable men I have met in the cutlery business. I hold him in the same regard as I hold AL Mar and Les De Asis (owner of Benchmade Knives), both of whom I knew well.


Yes, I am aware of the Buck 110 data sheets, I posted them for Joe in the Buck forum several years ago-
http://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/kni ... 53&t=11569
Dale
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Re: Uncle Henry LB7 Lock-Back / Buck 110 Copy?

Post by Dave Thinkstoomuch »

orvet wrote:"People who have collected Schrades for more than a few years rarely use words like “always” and “never” when talking about Schrade. Schrade has this habit of doing the unexpected. I checked with LT, Richard Langston, who has collected Schrade for more than 50 years and has one of the largest Schrade collections in the world, (one of the top 3 or 4 largest collections). He said he remembers seeing some carbon steel LB7. They weren’t common, but they are out there."
What I said was "There were no early carbon versions (unless a sample knife or two that never made it to production are out there)." I know "never say never".

I am well aware of who Rich Langston is but even Schrade collectors can have fuzzy memories in their 70s (80s?). One man remembers seeing carbon LB7s? This is proof early Schrade LB7s were carbon? He has collected rare Schrade for 50 years and he doesn't have one in his collection? Why not? I'm still not convinced. If they were out there it I believe it would have been discussed on bladeforums somewhere. Once again: show me one. Anyone at AAPK have one? Not "big fish" exception-to-the-rule sample stories, examples of carbon LB7 production knives. We all know Schrade made sample knives of all sorts so maybe the odd one exists (as I already conceded in my previous post) but what I said was true: Bear Paw Family were advertised as being Schrade+ stainless knives from the get-go. There were never any advertised carbon Lb7 knives. It was never an option to buy one as far as I know. I know to never-say-never but if I want to claim that Schrade made LB7s out of ATS34 then I better have more than 2nd hand memories to back that up.

orvet wrote:Well, I can say with authority you are 100% wrong. I have repaired a number of LB7s with the flat springs in them. I have a flat spring LB7 setting on my desk as I type this.
Obviously you took my statements very personally and stopped reading what I wrote because in my last post I already admitted I was wrong about this (after further research) and had found some examples. As I mentioned before my avoidance of late-model LB7 knives because of 420HC saved me from these bad springs too. I can admit when I'm wrong, some people can't.
orvet wrote:As regards Buck-
I managed a retail cutlery store for about 10 years in the 1980s and early 1990s. We actually had customers complain they had dropped their Buck knife on a rock and had the blade break. It is possible to have steel so hard that it is not good for the average knife user. We also had problems in that time frame with Buck knives chipping. As I recall Bucks then were around 60 or so in the Rockwell C scale then, but I don’t remember the exact number. These problems may have played into Buck’s decision to go with 420HC.

You seem to have a low opinion of the motives of Buck, (that they are only motivated by profit). I think if you ever had the chance to visit with Chuck Buck you would change your opinion. Chuck is one of the most principled and honorable men I have met in the cutlery business. I hold him in the same regard as I hold AL Mar and Les De Asis (owner of Benchmade Knives), both of whom I knew well.


Yes, I am aware of the Buck 110 data sheets, I posted them for Joe in the Buck forum several years ago-
http://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/kni ... 53&t=11569
I didn't post the sheet for you because I figured you had already seen it. I posted it for Ken. Every successful corporation's main motivator is profit. Buck is no different. If you think they are you are naive no matter what Chuck Buck is like as a man. Fine blanking and steel cost drove the change to 420HC not quality. They did indeed cater to "the average knife user" who can't sharpen and needs to pry all the time in salt-water environments. This isn't what I want in a knife. It was the change in blade-grind (Edge 2000) that makes a new 110 cut better than an old one. The "hollower" hollow grind and 15 degree sharpening angle makes them cut well not the steel. The CATRA tests were fixed because Buck used the old thicker grind on the 440C knife and the new "Edge 2000" on the 420HC.

Dale, I was very careful to back up everything I said with proof and promptly corrected the double-spring error I made. As far as I can tell you read none of what I posted and all you heard was "Dale is wrong."

knarfeng (moderator on bladeforums) seems to know his stuff and agrees with me about Buck. I could post 50 links to all the threads I have read comparing 440c to 420HC to back up my position but it seems you wouldn't read them. Does Buck sponser AAPK?

I have nothing against Buck, I just don't like the myth currently being sold to the knife buying public that 420HC is quality steel. It's better for the "average knife user"? Sure it is. It's softer so it's sharpens easier (and loses it's edge faster), it's more corrosion resistant (no down side) and it's tougher so idiots who use their knives as a pry-bar or screwdriver won't break or chip it as easy as 440C.

The "average knife user" doesn't read AAPK and I still suggest knife fans here learn how to sharpen knives made out of harder steels and then use them as cutting tools only. If you can't sharpen 440C then BG42, S30V, etc will be impossible as well. Buck sells "premium" (read "better") knives made out of these steels and they are indeed better knives than ones made out of 420HC. The "average knife user" can make do without custom knives or even knives made in the USA. They can buy a fine Chinese made Buck and be perfectly happy. They can buy some vintage Pakistan crap and be happy. They can buy all sorts of crap and be happy. This still doesn't make a lesser knife into a better one.

Buck's 420HC may well be the best out there but other steels are superior and there isn't a knife maker out there who would call 420HC the best steel money can buy because it's not. Period. Muddying these waters only serves to confuse people looking for high-performance blades.

Forget what came before my only points are these:

1. Properly hardened and tempered 440C that has been properly sharpened will out-perform 420HC if the blade geometry is the same. When I say out-perform I mean cut better for longer. Edge retention! Not pry or saw away at hard things your knife should never touch. Cut and keep cutting.

2. Schrade LB7 was advertised more heavily than any knife in history perhaps with all the TV spots etc. and it was always advertised as being made from Schrade+ stainless.

3. Stick with early serialized LB7 knives and you will be sure to avoid crappy springs and 420HC. The early 440A knives with the "squareish" spring stock were very good knives that I still see as superior to today's Buck 110.

I'm good with being wrong (when I am) but The Bear Paw Family were stainless knives. That's the rule. Rare exceptions may exist. I'd love to see one of these but if they are so very, very rare and unusual and unlikely that no one on AAPK or bladeforums has one (including Rich Langston) then they are hardly worth mentioning. "There were a few early ones made with 1095 carbon steel, they are rare, but make a dandy user knife!". Really? Based on what? Rich Langston remembers using his carbon LB7 before he got rid of it because it was too rare to bother keeping? Doesn't sound very convincing to me. I may be just arguing semantics but you should have said that you imagine these would make a good user knife. You are an authority here and I believe you should separate speculation from fact when posting.
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Re: Uncle Henry LB7 Lock-Back / Buck 110 Copy?

Post by orvet »

This is getting boring! ::disgust::
You are trying to twist general statements I made into absolute statements to make it seem like I am saying things I am never intended to say. That is disingenuous.
orvet wrote: While I would usually pick 440C over 420HC, if the heat treating of the 420HC is by Paul Bos, I will choose it over the 440C.
Where in that statement did I say either steel is better? I said, “if the heat treating of the 420HC is by Paul Bos, I will choose it over the 440C.” And then you go off on a lecture about how superior 440C is. I could care less! That was totally off the topic! It was MY OPINION and it is not open to debate. Period.

I don’t have time to argue with someone who obviously considers himself an expert. I am still learning about Schrade after studying Schrade intently for 7 or 8 years and collecting knives for 30 year, I don’t know it all and never will, but I don’t have time for people who think they do.

You may have nothing better to do with your time, but I certainly do.
See ya!
Dale
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Re: Uncle Henry LB7 Lock-Back / Buck 110 Copy?

Post by Dave Thinkstoomuch »

orvet wrote:This is getting boring! ::disgust::
You are trying to twist general statements I made into absolute statements to make it seem like I am saying things I am never intended to say. That is disingenuous.
orvet wrote: While I would usually pick 440C over 420HC, if the heat treating of the 420HC is by Paul Bos, I will choose it over the 440C.
Where in that statement did I say either steel is better? I said, “if the heat treating of the 420HC is by Paul Bos, I will choose it over the 440C.” And then you go off on a lecture about how superior 440C is. I could care less! That was totally off the topic! It was MY OPINION and it is not open to debate. Period.

I don’t have time to argue with someone who obviously considers himself an expert. I am still learning about Schrade after studying Schrade intently for 7 or 8 years and collecting knives for 30 year, I don’t know it all and never will, but I don’t have time for people who think they do.

You may have nothing better to do with your time, but I certainly do.
See ya!
This is the last post I will make on this subject.

I was friendly, genuine and open to being wrong from the get-go. I provided "proofs" for what I said. I do not "know everything". I believe that requesting proofs is a reasonable thing to keep Schrade collectors on the same page. I believe that if Buck fixed the results of the CATRA tests to deliberately mislead the knife buying public the members here deserve to know the truth of it. I think I provided those proofs. Now people have heard both sides...

I do know the LB7 was marketed as a stainless knife. I do know that 420HC is cheaper for Buck to make knives from than 440C. I know I have never seen a carbon LB7. I know I have never heard of a carbon LB7 previous to this thread. I know I have read every post (that's every!!!) post on Schrade on bladeforums and here. Yeah that's all of them, most multiple times. I know I have an ocean more to learn about just about everything but if you are telling me I am incapable of learning or being open minded then you are incorrect. I DO know a lot about the LB7 and I thank you for clarifying the double-spring error I made.

Name dropping? LAME. 8 years instead of 3? LAME. I'm 45. I started buying "safe queens" three years ago but I have been using Schrade and Buck products for over 30 years. Throwing around credentials is lame too but if you try and discredit me with a personal attack I can and will retaliate.

ps. Dale, the 6OT in buffalo horn and mammoth ivory I bought from you for full-pop to try and support you personally because of all the Schrade info you have posted and because of your disability is sub-standard with poor quality fit and finish and construction methods. The recess for the Old Timer shield is over-cut and sloppy. You put the shield in upside down as compared to all standard 6OTs. Now a year later whatever you used to glue the handles on is starting to bubble and lift off the handles. It has been stored correctly and never used but it now looks like crap. I didn't say any of this to anyone ever because I didn't want to believe it myself but the custom I bought from you was poorly made and I sure wouldn't buy another. I will be posting an update of recent scans of my knife to show "what you don't want" in a custom re-handle job. You shouldn't have made this personal.

I'm we can both agree that we are both happy this is the last time I will post on AAPK. Please delete or ban me.

See ya!!!

.
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Re: Uncle Henry LB7 Lock-Back / Buck 110 Copy?

Post by orvet »

Send it back, I will send you a refund.
I don’t need or want your charity!
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Re: Uncle Henry LB7 Lock-Back / Buck 110 Copy?

Post by ea42 »

Dave, that PS was about the most unnecessary childish comeback I've ever seen ::td:: Are you 45 or 5? What in the world did Dale say that would justify you putting that up? I just don't see it. I do know what you can do with your scans. Why do all your posts have to include thinly veiled insults (or in this last case just outright nastiness) to the posters you're answering?

For someone who seems to require proof of everything you read, where's the proof that Buck fixed the tests? "I strongly suspect" doesn't cut it. They clearly state that they were proving that the Edge 2000 angle on 420HC could outperform standard edge angles that were being produced at the time on a variety of steels, both by them and other manufacturers. That's why the angles were different, NOT so they could mislead the public.

In reality you're going to see Rockwell values on blades with 420HC and 440C average around 57, there's always a point or so difference in either direction, it's not an exact science. No manufacturer is going to guarantee hardness to a specific number. On 440A and 1095 that'd be the high number. On 110's in 420HC and LB-7's in both 440A and 420HC, the performance differences are completely negligible in the real world. You're not going to find an LB-7 in 440C so there's no point in even discussing it.

I'm just as much a Schradeoholic as the next guy, plus I've got real experience in the cutlery industry, but I don't see any reason to falsely accuse Buck of misleading folks, or in bashing their choice of steel. Schrade's choice of 440A is on basically on the same level. Both companies have/had excellent heat treating which is really what's important, especially at the price point they're sold at.
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Re: Uncle Henry LB7 Lock-Back / Buck 110 Copy?

Post by ea42 »

To answer the OP's original question: Yes the LB-7 was a copy of the 110. In fact Albert Baer was very upset with Henry Baer after being shown a prototype that Henry had ordered with some improvements. He basically asked why improvements were necessary on a knife that was obviously perfected! Some of those improvements were retained though, and some items needed to be addressed like flysprings launching out of the knife when it was opened. One bounced off the face of the President of Hoffritz!

Eric
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Re: Uncle Henry LB7 Lock-Back / Buck 110 Copy?

Post by Dave Thinkstoomuch »

ea42 wrote:Dave, that PS was about the most unnecessary childish comeback I've ever seen ::td:: Are you 45 or 5? What in the world did Dale say that would justify you putting that up? I just don't see it. I do know what you can do with your scans. Why do all your posts have to include thinly veiled insults (or in this last case just outright nastiness) to the posters you're answering?

For someone who seems to require proof of everything you read, where's the proof that Buck fixed the tests? "I strongly suspect" doesn't cut it. They clearly state that they were proving that the Edge 2000 angle on 420HC could outperform standard edge angles that were being produced at the time on a variety of steels, both by them and other manufacturers. That's why the angles were different, NOT so they could mislead the public.

In reality you're going to see Rockwell values on blades with 420HC and 440C average around 57, there's always a point or so difference in either direction, it's not an exact science. No manufacturer is going to guarantee hardness to a specific number. On 440A and 1095 that'd be the high number. On 110's in 420HC and LB-7's in both 440A and 420HC, the performance differences are completely negligible in the real world. You're not going to find an LB-7 in 440C so there's no point in even discussing it.

I'm just as much a Schradeoholic as the next guy, plus I've got real experience in the cutlery industry, but I don't see any reason to falsely accuse Buck of misleading folks, or in bashing their choice of steel. Schrade's choice of 440A is on basically on the same level. Both companies have/had excellent heat treating which is really what's important, especially at the price point they're sold at.
"
Well I'm bored too and thought this over but now I'm attacked personally again. "What I can do with my scans?" What does that even mean? I'm not a photoshop liar. Don't imply I am. Sorry I take close-ups. I post the pics to try and contribute. Period.

Why I said it? I just decided to stop lying about it. What goes around comes around. Dale disrespected me and well, you know. It will soon be for sale and you can snatch it up and scan it yourself. The scans I will post will show the knife as it is. I'm not making crap up.

I have made only 20 posts here, total. Anyone can easily review them all and anyone who does read them will know I don't go around insulting people. Anyone who doesn't and believes that anyway. Well, they are also the type of person who hates it when facts get in the way of a good story. "Thinly veiled insults". Perhaps you need to work on your English comprehension skills and do some research on "confirmation bias". Yeah, that was insulting. You started it.

I have all the proof I need about Buck and if I thought you would bother reading it all (it might take you a couple weeks) I would provide the links. I further suppose you agree that 420HC isn't great steel and just won't voice it because it may be the best hope the american knife industry has of competing price-wise with imports. Comparing 420HC edge 2000 with thicker 440C sharpened at a more obtuse angle is comparing apples to oranges. All it proved was thinner knives cut better. Buck and yourself and lots of folks have drawn a different conclusion. There's my proof. They conned you good. If you want to prove something using correct "scientific method" you only ever change one variable at a time and compare it with the control group. Buck changed two. Their often touted CATRA tests are flawed. Without those tests all we have is anecdotal evidence that the 420HC knives are "good".

Truth be told I'm all about facts and figures and being nice. When I'm wrong I promptly admit it. Sorry you felt making this personal between us as well was the best way to put out this fire. You know nothing about my motives and you are standing up for a colleague at my expense. I respect that. Too bad I hit back.

I want to drop let this drop and disappear; please don't provoke me and I will. If you keep hitting the ball back with further lies and insults it will degrade appropriately.
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Re: Uncle Henry LB7 Lock-Back / Buck 110 Copy?

Post by koldgold »

ea42 wrote:To answer the OP's original question: Yes the LB-7 was a copy of the 110. In fact Albert Baer was very upset with Henry Baer after being shown a prototype that Henry had ordered with some improvements. He basically asked why improvements were necessary on a knife that was obviously perfected! Some of those improvements were retained though, and some items needed to be addressed like flysprings launching out of the knife when it was opened. One bounced off the face of the President of Hoffritz!

Eric
Thank You Eric for answering my question. ::handshake:: ::tu::
I think we should stop putting people down on this sight.
If you can not say some-thing good, DO NOT POST IT HERE...Ken
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Re: Uncle Henry LB7 Lock-Back / Buck 110 Copy?

Post by AussieBosun »

AussieBosun wrote:correct me if i'm wrong but from memory i think the buck is 420HC and the schrade 440c
I have learnt alot from this topic , 1- all Buck's are not 420HC & , 2- Schrade's are not 440C but in fact 440A.

I have also valued Dave's and Dale's separate opinions and knowledge , with the exception of the personal tirades.

If a member has a personal problem with another then take it out the back , sort it out , and get on with it.

I am relatively new here to AAPK and to think that a member would pull the pin because of a difference of opinion astounds me , i mean thats what forums are for right , intelligent discussions about things we are passionate about ..........
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Re: Uncle Henry LB7 Lock-Back / Buck 110 Copy?

Post by koldgold »

AussieBosun wrote:
AussieBosun wrote:correct me if i'm wrong but from memory i think the buck is 420HC and the schrade 440c

If a member has a personal problem with another then take it out the back , sort it out , and get on with it.

I am relatively new here to AAPK and to think that a member would pull the pin because of a difference of opinion astounds me , i mean thats what forums are for right , intelligent discussions about things we are passionate about ..........
Well said Aussie, a difference of opinion and a good debate is always good for any forum.
Just when you think you know all about a subject, someone comes along and knows much more about the subject.
I asked about the Buck 110, because I have never seen one.. Ken
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Re: Uncle Henry LB7 Lock-Back / Buck 110 Copy?

Post by ea42 »

I know what you're saying guys, and I do agree, but how do you not reply to a post like the one above? It's ridiculous.

I'll just address one item:
Dave Thinkstoomuch wrote:I have all the proof I need about Buck and if I thought you would bother reading it all (it might take you a couple weeks) I would provide the links. I further suppose you agree that 420HC isn't great steel and just won't voice it because it may be the best hope the american knife industry has of competing price-wise with imports. Comparing 420HC edge 2000 with thicker 440C sharpened at a more obtuse angle is comparing apples to oranges. All it proved was thinner knives cut better. Buck and yourself and lots of folks have drawn a different conclusion. There's my proof. They conned you good.
How could they have conned me if that's exactly what I said above?? "They clearly state that they were proving that the Edge 2000 angle on 420HC could outperform standard edge angles that were being produced at the time on a variety of steels, both by them and other manufacturers. That's why the angles were different, NOT so they could mislead the public." Seems like you basically just rearranged my wording ::shrug:: Edge angles were much more obtuse at the time, and still are from many manufacturers, Buck tried something different. I still don't see the proof, and I'm not talking about a boatload of BFC links either. I've read them all as well and nowhere do any of them prove that Buck intentionally mislead the public. That's your opinion and hearing anything to the contrary just gets in your craw, doesn't it? Seems confirmation bias describes you to a T.

Now fellas I am done with this, even if the inevitable reply is fraught with more nastiness ::mdm:: , and I do aplogize for the detour.

Glad I could be of some help Ken!

Eric
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Re: Uncle Henry LB7 Lock-Back / Buck 110 Copy?

Post by pcrcrepaira »

Schrade LB7 is similar in size and weight. You can find the the old USA made versions on the large auction site. That's the first one that comes to my mind. Puma makes a version as well I believe. I thought I've seen a statement that the Buck110 is the most copied knife pattern in the world.
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Re: Uncle Henry LB7 Lock-Back / Buck 110 Copy?

Post by tongueriver »

Wow! This is an ancient thread. I know it must have been answered, but would someone please remind me, which came first, the chicken, or the... no! wait!... the Buck or the Schrade?
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