orvet wrote:The Buck 110 was made with 440C in 1964.
In 1981 they switched to 425 modified stainless.
In 1994 they switched steels again to 420HC (high carbon) stainless.
The LB series are mainly made with Schrade+ stainless. To the best of my knowledge that was Schrade’s trade name for their 440C. There were a few early ones made with 1095 carbon steel, they are rare, but make a dandy user knife!
Of course we all know a blade is only as good as the heat treating. The man who wrote the book on heat treating stainless steel, Paul Bos, is the one who oversees the heat treating for all of Buck’s US made knives. While I would usually pick 440C over 420HC, if the heat treating of the 420HC is by Paul Bos, I will choose it over the 440C.
I have several Buck 110s and LB-7s, LB-8s, 6OTs, 7OTs & a 9OT. I have a user LB-7 I have had since the 1980s and 2 or 3 user 110s; I prefer the feel of the 110 in my hand. I think the 110 will hold the edge a bit better than my LB-7 does. Though I think if I had an LB-7 with a blade of 1095 carbon steel I would prefer it.
From a mechanical point of view, I think Schrade made a BIG mistake when they switched from the bar spring and spacer/holder to the two flat springs. The flat springs tend to break and it is impossible to get that type of springs to replace them. If I get an LB into my shop with broken flat springs I make a spacer and a bar type spring and convert it over to the old style spring. The bar springs are easy to replace and anyone with some mechanical skill can make something that will work. Not so with the flat springs.
If the LB series is a copy of the Buck 110, IMHO as a knife user and a knife mechanic, they did a poor job of copying the 110.
I'm afraid I have to disagree, Dale. Here's why (WARNING! it's verbose lol):
Carbon LB7? The LB series were always stainless. LB1, LB3, LB5, LB7, LB8 all stainless, always. There were no early carbon versions (unless a sample knife or two that never made it to production are out there). If you wanted a 1095 knife like the LB7 you had to go with the delrin handles on the 7OT. The 7OT knives stamped "Schrade" not "Schrade+" are 1095 carbon. Great knives!
Heat treating: Yup we all know that to realize the full potential of a certain type of steel it must be correctly heat treated. Maybe Buck does produce a better cutting tool from 420HC than anyone else but it still is 420HC. 440C when properly heat treated and tempered is a superior steel with superior qualities. It has waaaay more carbon in it and can retain a higher hardness. This does make it less rust-resistant of course but improves edge retention. I challenge anyone to show me some research proving that 420HC out-performs 440C when both are hardened and tempered appropriately and the blade geometry is the same. My understanding is that Paul Bos is retired and sure, he did train someone to follow in his footsteps but saying that Paul Bos oversees the heat-treating at Buck these days is an incorrect statement.
Buck changed to 420HC mainly as a way to lower production costs. Some folks had a hard time sharpening the very hard (likely 58) 440C and some complained of edge chipping and these were minor factors so Buck will focus on them but the main one was to save money by using cheaper/softer steel. Buck produced "Catra" tests supposedly "proving" that 420HC was superior to 440C but I still don't buy it. They could never admit to switching to crappier steel and still expect them to sell well.
Here are some of those often referred to CATRA results:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showt ... ng-ability
In my opinion Buck "cooked the books" to produce the outcome they desired when comparing 420HC to BG42. Note the high-performance steels are sharpened at 40 degrees and the Buck 420HC knife uses its thin "Edge 2000" profile in the first graph. When the better steels are sharpened with the same geometry (2nd graph) they surpass the 420HC. Buck gets the most from 420HC when they use it but that sure doesn't make it better than BG42. The first graph is provided by Buck to specifically mislead a casual reader into thinking 420HC is better than BG42. It's a con. Why compare apples to oranges? The 440C is shown as "inferior" to both BG42 and 420HC but I don't buy it. I think it is suspicious that the CATRA machine produced exactly the results that Buck wanted. They "proved" cheaper 420HC (that was currently marketed) was better than more expensive 440C (that was no longer available and cannot be "fine blanked") and that BG42 (being currently marketed) was worth a premium price. That is, "proof" that what they are doing now on standard models is not only cheaper, it's better too. They did the testing to justify their use of 420HC and surprise, surprise, it did just that. They knew there was a large potential for lost customers when they made the change to 420HC and they need something to reassure knife buyers. I won't accept these results until I see non-biased (not a manufacturers results) tests. Note that 440A isn't even in these test results. My guess is that Buck did test it as well (to prove their knives were better than competitors 440A knives) but when it did out-perform their 420HC they didn't add it to the graph. It's absence in the data is significant I believe.
Bucks own site shows misleading data. Their FAQS state that the maximum hardness that can be achieved using 420HC is 58. They Do Not guarantee (or even say) that's the current hardness of their blades. They use the "In general" discalimer as a way to avoid making a commitment too. I suspect 56 is about as hard as they ever get when you buy one off the shelf at Wal Mart and it might be less than that. If their heat-treat was as consistent and an exact a science as they would like us to believe it is they would say "Every Buck knife made from 420HC is guaranteed to have a hardness of 58". They don't dare say this which can be taken to mean that 420HC Buck 110s are NOT Rockwell 58. The old 440C 110s were indeed hardened to 58. Has anyone independently tested the hardness of current Buck 110s? I'd love to see the data. At the same time, I am sure the 420HC knife they chose to use when producing those CATRA results was a perfect one, pre-tested to be at Rockwell 58 and tempered right. I strongly suspect the 440C blade was less-than-perfect and incorrectly treated to produce their desired result: "New is better".
http://www.buckknives.com/index.cfm?event=about.feature
Springs? I'm 99.99% sure that Schrade never made a single LB7 with two flat springs. This configuration showed up first in 1981 on the LB1. Later the LB5 did indeed make this change so early LB5 knives with the two-line stamping are of superior construction to the later LB5s. The 3OT, 5OT, 6OT all used the double springs but the LB7 never did. It always had the separate spacer/retainer and spring. The LB1 always used double springs I believe. I can't recall the guts of all LB3 vintages so I won't comment on them. Dale, I think you are picturing the guts of the 6OT in your head not an LB7.
There were changes made to the spring stock used by Schrade in their LB7s though. Originally it was "squareish" in profile. Then years later it switched to "rounder" stock. Heat treatment and type of steel for springs is important as well. My purely anecdotal opinion formed from buying a lot of Schrade 5" lockbacks is that the early "square" stock was superior. A well made spring should not "relax" under sustained compression (cycling weakens springs not sustained compression within design range) but some Schrades I have that were stored half-open in their displays for decades have weakened springs.
Schrade+ steel was 440A for the most part not 440C. Saying Schrade+ was 440C is incorrect. They may have produced some knives made from 440C (the first "brown box" UH167 I bought was waaaay harder than later UH167s I've purchased) but these were the exceptions to the rule not the rule itself. Schrade+ was basically 440A until a running change to 420HC occurred that began in 1998. A few years later all Schrade+ was 420HC. It was cheaper for Schrade to make 420HC knives just as it was for Buck and making knives for less drove the change not the quest for the ultimate blade.
I like the way the LB7 feels in my hand better but of course that's highly subjective. I guess we have to agree to disagree, wise and intelligent friend.
In my opinion an early 4-pin "Ultimate Lockback" LB7 by Schrade is a superior knife to a current Buck 110. Were some earlier 440C versions of the 110 superior to the LB7? Perhaps...
Cheers!
ps. here's a a great early Buck 110 data sheet put together by Joe Houser that tells you everything about all the different variations:
First Version, Thin steel Spacer & Spring one piece, 2 variations
Variation 1 (1964-1965)1
Blade Stamp: Horizontal, BUCK, Right hand, 440C steel, thin.
Blade/Butt rivets: Visible on left side of bolsters only.
Inlay rivets: 2 (tiny)
Rocker rivet: Brass, no head.
Sheath: Thin leather, black or tan. A
Packaging: 2 piece yellow box about 1 ½” high-(3), Guarantee Registration/Remember card with Federal Blvd. address-(3)(2 types seen), Use and Care leaflet with Federal Blvd. address-(1), rice paper guarantee slip-(1), white tissue-(2), tips on care card-(1), knife sharpening card-(1).
Variation 2 (pre 1967)2
Stamp: Horizontal, BUCK, etched, Right hand, 440C steel, thin.
Blade/Butt rivets: Visible on left side of bolsters only.
Inlay rivets: 2 (tiny)
Rocker rivet: Brass, no head.
Sheath: Thin leather, black. A
Packaging: 2 piece yellow box about 1 ½” high-(0), Guarantee Registration/Remember card with Federal Blvd. address-(0)(2 types seen), rice paper guarantee slip-(0), white tissue-(0), tips on care card-(0), knife sharpening card-(0).
Second Version, Fiber Spacer, Spring in rocker design, 3 variations
Variation 1 (pre 1967)3
Stamp: Horizontal, BUCK, Left hand, 440C steel.
Blade/Butt rivets: Visible on left side of bolsters only.
Inlay rivets: 2 (tiny)
Rocker rivet: Brass, no head.
Sheath: Thin leather, black. A
Packaging: 2 piece yellow box about 1 ½” high-(0), Guarantee Registration/Remember card with Federal Blvd. address-(0)(2 types seen), rice paper guarantee slip-(0), white tissue-(0), tips on care card-(0), knife sharpening card-(0).
Variation 2 (pre 1967)4
Stamp: Horizontal, BUCK, Left hand, 440C steel.
Butt rivets: Visible on left side of rear bolsters only.
Blade rivet: Visible on both sides of front bolsters.
Inlay rivets: 2 (tiny)
Rocker rivet: Brass, no head.
Sheath: Leather, black. A
Packaging: 2 piece yellow box about 1 ½” high-(0), Guarantee Registration/Remember card with Federal Blvd. address-(0)(2 types seen), rice paper guarantee slip-(0), white tissue-(0), tips on care card-(0), knife sharpening card-(0).
Variation 3 (1967)5
Stamp: Horizontal, BUCK dot, Left hand, 440C steel.
Butt rivets: Visible on left side of rear bolsters only.
Blade rivet: Visible on both sides of front bolsters.
Inlay rivets: 2 (tiny)
Rocker rivet: Brass, no head.
Sheath: Leather, black. A
Packaging: 2 piece yellow box about 1 ½” high-(0), Guarantee Registration/Remember card with Federal Blvd. address-(0)(2 types seen), rice paper Guarantee slip-(0), white tissue-(0), tips on care card-(0), knife sharpening card-(0).
Third Version, Integral Brass Spacer/Spring holder, 9 variations
Variation 1 (1967)6
Stamp: BUCK dot, Inverted, Left hand, 440C steel.
Butt rivets: Visible on left side of rear bolsters only.
Blade rivet: Visible on both sides of front bolsters.
Inlay rivets: 2 (tiny)
Rocker rivet: Brass, no head.
Sheath: Leather, black. A or B.
Packaging: 2 piece yellow box about 1 ½” high-(2), Guarantee Registration/Remember card with Federal Blvd. address-(1)(2 types seen), rice paper guarantee slip-(2), white tissue-(2), tips on care card-(2), knife sharpening card-(2).
Variation 2 (1967)7
Stamp: BUCK, Inverted, Left hand, 440C steel.
Butt rivets: 2 visible on left side of rear bolsters only.
Blade rivet: Visible on both sides of front bolsters.
Inlay rivets: 2 (tiny)
Rocker rivet: Brass, no head.
Sheath: Leather, black. A or B.
Packaging: 2 piece yellow box. **
Variation 3 (1967)8
Stamp: BUCK, u.s.a., Inverted, Left hand, 440C steel.
Butt rivets: 2 visible on left side of rear bolsters only.
Blade rivet: Visible on both sides of front bolsters.
Inlay rivets: 2 (tiny)
Rocker rivet: Brass, no head.
Sheath: Leather, black. B or C.
Packaging: 2 piece yellow box about 2” high-(1), about 1 ½” high-(1), “Attention” leaflet orange-(1), knife sharpening card-(1), Guarantee Registration/Remember card with Federal Blvd. address-(1)(2 types seen), Use and Care leaflet with Federal Blvd. address-(1), Navy exchng sales slip date 12/1/67, Al Buck note-(1).
Variation 4 (1968-1970)9
Stamp: BUCK, u.s.a., Inverted, Left hand, 440C steel.
Butt rivets: Visible on left side of rear bolsters only.
Blade rivet: Visible on both sides of front bolsters.
Inlay rivets: None.
Rocker rivet: Brass, no head.
Sheath: Leather, black. B or C.
Packaging: 2 piece yellow box about 2” high. **
Variation 5 (1968-1970)10
Stamp: BUCK, u.s.a., Inverted, Left hand, 440C steel.
Butt rivets: 3 visible on left side of rear bolster 1 visible on right side.
Blade rivet: Visible on both sides of front bolsters.
Inlay rivets: 2 (tiny)
Rocker rivet: Brass, no head.
Sheath: Leather, black. B or C.
Packaging: 2 piece yellow box about 2” high. **
Variation 6 (1968-1970)11
Stamp: BUCK, u.s.a., Inverted, Left hand, 440C steel.
Butt rivets: 1 visible on left side of rear bolster, 1 on right side.
Blade rivet: Visible on both sides of front bolsters.
Inlay rivets: 2 (tiny)
Rocker rivet: Brass, no head.
Sheath: Leather, black. B or C.
Packaging: 2 piece yellow box about 2” high. **
Variation 7 (1968-1970)12
Stamp: BUCK, u.s.a., Inverted, Left hand, 440C steel.
Butt rivets: 1 visible on left side of rear bolster, 1 on right side.
Blade rivet: Visible on both sides of front bolsters.
Inlay rivets: 2 standard sized.
Rocker rivet: Brass, no head.
Sheath: Leather, black. B or C.
Packaging: 2 piece yellow box about 2” high. **
Variation 8 (1968-1970)13
Stamp: BUCK, u.s.a., Inverted, Left hand, 440C steel.
Butt rivets: 2 visible on both sides of bolsters.
Blade rivet: Visible on both sides of front bolsters.
Inlay rivets: 2 (tiny)
Rocker rivet: Brass, maybe headed.
Sheath: Leather, black. B or C.
Packaging: 2 piece yellow box about 2” high. **
Variation 9 (1968-1970)14
Stamp: BUCK, u.s.a., Inverted, Right hand, 440C steel.
Blade/Butt rivets: Visible on both sides of bolsters, 2 rear, 1 front.
Inlay rivets: 2 (tiny)
Rocker rivet: Brass, maybe headed.
Sheath: Leather, black. B or C.
Packaging: 2 piece yellow box about 2” high-(1), Use and Care leaflet undated-(1), “Attention” leaflet orange-(1), **
Fourth Version, Brass Spacer/Spring holder separate piece, 2 variations
Variation 1 (1970-1972)15
Stamp: BUCK, U.S.A., Inverted, Left hand, 440C steel.
Blade/Butt rivets: Visible on both sides of bolsters, 2 rear, 1 front.
Inlay rivets: 2 (tiny) or 2 small headed.
Rocker rivet: Brass, maybe headed.
Sheath: Black leather. C.
Packaging: 2 piece yellow box about 2” high-(1), Use and Care leaflet undated-(1) **
Variation 2 (1970-1972)16
Stamp: BUCK, U.S.A., Inverted, Left hand, 440C steel.
Blade/Butt rivets: Visible on both sides of bolsters, 2 rear, 1 front.
Inlay rivets: 2 (tiny) or 2 small headed.
Rocker rivet: Stainless, headed.
Sheath: Black leather. C.
Packaging: 2 piece yellow box about 2” high, Use and Care leaflet. **
Fifth Version, Stainless Spacer/Spring holder separate piece, 7 variations
Variation 1 (1970-1972)17
Stamp: BUCK, U.S.A., Inverted, Left hand, 440C steel.
Blade/Butt rivets: Visible on both sides of bolsters, 2 rear, 1 front.
Inlay rivets: 2 (tiny)
Rocker rivet: Brass, stainless?
Sheath: Black leather. C.
Packaging: 2 piece yellow box about 2” high, Use and Care leaflet. **
Variation 2 (1972)18
Stamp: BUCK, 110, U.S.A., Inverted, Left hand, 440C steel.
Blade/Butt rivets: Visible on both sides of bolsters, 2 rear, 1 front.
Inlay rivets: 2 (tiny)
Rocker rivet: Stainless, headed.
Sheath: Black leather. C.
Packaging: 2 piece yellow box about 2” high, Use and Care leaflet. **
Variation 3 (1972-1974)19
Stamp: BUCK, 110, U.S.A., left hand. Read with tip point up, 440C steel.
Blade/Butt rivets: Visible on both sides of bolsters, 2 rear, 1 front.
Inlay rivets: 2 (small headed)
Rocker rivet: Stainless, headed.
Sheath: Black leather. C.
Packaging: 2 piece yellow box about 2” high-(4), Use and Care leaflet dated- 4/4/72-(3),1/73-(1), white tissue-(1), “Attention” leaflet orange-(3).
Variation 4 (1974)20
Stamp: BUCK, *110*, U.S.A., left hand. Read with tip point up, 440C steel.
Blade/Butt rivets: Visible on both sides of bolsters, 2 rear, 1 front.
Inlay rivets: 2 (small headed)
Rocker rivet: Stainless, headed.
Sheath: Black leather. C.
Packaging: 2 piece yellow box about 2” high-(1), Use and Care leaflet dated-1/73-(1), “Attention” leaflet orange-(1), Al Buck note-(1).
Variation 5 (1974-1980)21
Stamp: BUCK, *110*, U.S.A., left hand. Read with tip point up, 440C steel.
Blade/Butt rivets: Visible on both sides of bolsters, 2 rear, 1 front.
Inlay rivets: 4 (small headed)
Rocker rivet: Stainless, headed.
Sheath: Black leather. C.
Packaging: 2 piece yellow box about 2” high. **
Variation 6 (1974-1980)22
Stamp: BUCK, *110*, U.S.A., left hand. Read with tip point up, 440C steel.
Blade/Butt rivets: Visible on both sides of bolsters, 2 rear, 1 front.
Inlay rivets: 3 (small headed)
Rocker rivet: Stainless, headed.
Sheath: Black leather. C.
Packaging: 2 piece yellow box about 2” high-(4), Use and Care leaflet-dated 10/76-(4), “Attention” leaflet orange-(3), Al Buck note-(3).
Variation 7 (1974-1980)23
Stamp: BUCK, *110*, U.S.A., left hand. Read with tip point up, 440C steel.
Blade/Butt rivets: Visible on both sides of bolsters, 2 rear, 1 front.
Inlay rivets: 3 (large headed)
Rocker rivet: Stainless, headed.
Sheath: Black leather. C.
Packaging: “2 piece yellow box about 2” high-(2), Use and Care leaflet dated 4/77-(1), 10/76-(1), “Attention” leaflet orange-(2), white tissue-(1), Al Buck note-(1)”, 1 piece yellow box about 2” high-(3), Use and Care leaflet dated 12/78-(1), Al Buck note-(2).
**Information incomplete. Not all details known at this time.
Sheaths:
A. Angeles Souvenir—late 1962 to late 1967. Thin leather, BUCK on snap, no rivets, no model number.
B. Atcheson Leather—late 1967 to early 1969. Leather, BUCK on flap, Model #, tooling lines and dimple rivet on belt loop.
C. Buck leather shop—started early 1969.
1) Leather, BUCK on snap & flap, tooling lines on belt loop. Used maybe 2 years?
2) Leather, BUCK on snap and flap, plain belt loop, model # on back.
Knives with date code mark of 1994 (\) can be found with either Macassar ebony or Obeechee wood inlays. Obeechee is more prevalent though.
Blade steel was changed in 19