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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:41 pm 
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I've been digging around the schrades-r-us site trying to get a handle on the emergence of the "Old Timer" marque. Please correct any mistakes that follow...

My understanding was that by 1960 Baer owned both Imperial/Ulster and Schrade Walden.

The first I can find of the "Old Timer" lable is under the Ulster name in 1960.
http://www.collectors-of-schrades-r.us/ ... K-60_7.htm

In 1963, it looks like they bundled an "Old Timer" with a Schrade Safari package set, pairing it with a Bowie knife.
http://www.collectors-of-schrades-r.us/ ... 3-CATS.pdf

In 1964, a larger line of "Old Timer" knives are in the Schrade catalog.
http://www.collectors-of-schrades-r.us/ ... W-CATS.pdf

It looks like Old Timers were sold under both names for a while. The latest dated catalog I could find with Ulster Old Timers was 1971:
http://www.collectors-of-schrades-r.us/ ... K-71-1.htm

Does anybody know when Old Timers were stopped being sold under the Ulster name?

Anybody know when the Ulster brand was dropped entirely?

Thanks so much

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:12 pm 
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Here is an abbreviated history of Schrade I have put together. Sources include Levine’s Guide 4th edition, Goins’ Encyclopedia of Cutlery Markings, Jim Sargent’s Guide to Knives & Razors and others.

This is a very abbreviated version:

The Schrade Brothers start Schrade Cutlery Company (Schrade Cut Co) in Walden New York in 1904.
January 1941, Albert Baer purchased Ulster Knife Co from the sons of Dwight Divine.
In 1943 Ulster & Imperial Knife Co formed a joint venture under the name of Kingston Cutlery Co to produce knives for the US government during WWII.
1945 Kingston forms Vulcan Safety Razor Co.
In 1946 Kingston purchased Schrade Cut Co & renamed it Schrade Walden Cutlery Corp.
It became a division of Imperial Knife as Mr. Baer had merged his Kingston Cutlery Co, Ulster Knife Co, & the newly purchased Schrade Cut Co with Imperial.
1947 Kingston is dissolved and Ulster, Schrade Walden & Imperial merge to form Imperial Knife Associated Companies.
1959- Schrade Walden introduces a line of knives known as Old Timer.
1973- Walden is dropped & the name is changed to just Schrade.
1983- Albert Baer buys all stock in Imperial & it becomes a privately held corp.
1985- the name is changed to Imperial Schrade Corp.
2004- Imperial Schrade Corp. closes on July 30.
2004- remaining merchandise and all assets of Imperial Schrade Corp. are sold at bankruptcy auction in October.
Stewart Taylor of Taylor Brands LLC purchases the intellectual property of Imperial Schrade Corp. including names & designs.
2005- Taylor Brands LLC begins bringing Chinese made knives with the Schrade name on them, including Old Timers & Uncle Henrys.


I think I may have posted this somewhere else on AAPK in similar format.
I hope this helps.
Dale

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:33 pm 
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Part of the text contained in the paperwork
that accompanies the Old Timer 25th Anniverary 34OT says:
"In the good old days in 1959 during a return trip to the factory
Messrs. Albert and Henry Baer discussed the extreme care and high
quality that went into every knife made under the Schrade brand.
We decided to offer a knife like Grand-dad had, so the name "Old
Timer" was developed. We reached back into the files to find a
pattern with the greatest utility. One that was comfortable to hold
and that would be practical for whittling and carving, and husky
enough to stand the rough treatment by the home handyman. We
established a separate 'Old Timer Department', where fine old world
cutlers who specialize in handmade knives would be the source for
the new 'Old Timers' "


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:42 pm 
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orvet wrote:
1945 Kingston forms Vulcan Safety Razor Co.
In 1946 Kingston purchased Schrade Cut Co & renamed it Schrade Walden Cutlery Corp.
It became a division of Imperial Knife as Mr. Baer had merged his Kingston Cutlery Co, Ulster Knife Co, & the newly purchased Schrade Cut Co with Imperial.
1947 Kingston is dissolved and Ulster, Schrade Walden & Imperial merge to form Imperial Knife Associated Companies.
1959- Schrade Walden introduces a line of knives known as Old Timer.
1973- Walden is dropped & the name is changed to just Schrade.



Dale, this is helpful but it raises some follow up questions.

The Wikipedia article on Imperial Schrade says the following:
"The Schrade-Walden division was moved from Walden, New York to Ellenville, New York after a fire consumed the factory in 1958, though the two companies would maintain separate manufacturing facilities.[2] Imperial Knife had positive economic growth up to the late 1970s, but as the conglomerate entered the 1980’s, a consolidation took place and the company divested itself of various holdings in order to streamline management.[5]"

So, am I right in saying that in 1958-1960, Ulsters would have been produced in Ellenville in the Ulster/Imperial plant and Schrade-Walden knives would have also been made in Ellenville, but in a different plant?

Am I also right in thinking that the fire and relocation of the Schrade-Walden left Imperial Knife Associated Companies with 3 major manufacturing facilities: 2 in Ellenville (Schrade-Walden and Ulster) and 1 in Providence (Imperial). Maybe a 4th in Ireland?

I'm confused by your statement that Schrade-Walden introduced "Old Timer" knives in 59? Not challenging you on this and recognize that there can be considerable differences between what got produced by whom and when and what is documented in the catalogs. But, the 1960 Ulster catalog mentions the new "Old Timer" and I can't find any mention of "Old Timers" in the Schrade-Walden catalogs until several years later.

Perhaps the right question I should be asking is if the first Old Timers were made in the Ulster or Schrade-Walden plants.

Here's where I'm going with this.... I'm wondering if Old Timer started out as an Ulster variant. And it looks to me judging from the catalogs of the 60s and 70s that Schrade-Walden became a higher-end side of the Imperial Knife Associated Companies group and that Ulster became something of a lower-end utility brand. I'm speculating here and looking for feedback. Lastly, I'm wondering if as that happened the Old Timer got brought over more under the Schrade-Walden umbrella (while noting that Old Timer Barlows stayed in the Ulster catalog for a long time too).

Thought?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:58 pm 
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woseyjales wrote:
Part of the text contained in the paperwork
that accompanies the Old Timer 25th Anniverary 34OT says:
"In the good old days in 1959 during a return trip to the factory
Messrs. Albert and Henry Baer discussed the extreme care and high
quality that went into every knife made under the Schrade brand.
We decided to offer a knife like Grand-dad had, so the name "Old
Timer" was developed. We reached back into the files to find a
pattern with the greatest utility. One that was comfortable to hold
and that would be practical for whittling and carving, and husky
enough to stand the rough treatment by the home handyman. We
established a separate 'Old Timer Department', where fine old world
cutlers who specialize in handmade knives would be the source for
the new 'Old Timers' "


Wosey (nice name),

That's very interesting and helpful. I'm wondering if this advertising copy is consistent with my theory that "Old Timer" started in the Ulster factory and then got subsumed under the Schrade-Walden label later in the mid 60s. That 25th Anniversary would have been in the mid-80s, around the time when Imperial Knife Associated Companies changed it's name to Imperial Schrade, yes? And I wonder (big speculation) if Schrade was just a much more recognizable name at that point, so much so that the following sentence wouldn't have made any sense:
Albert and Henry Baer discussed the extreme care and high quality that went into every knife made under by the Imperial Knife Associated Companies.

If this is the case, that "Schrade" was being used as marketing shorthand for Imperial Knife Associated Companies, I wonder if that "separate 'Old Timer Department', where fine old world cutlers who specialize in handmade knives would be the source for the new 'Old Timers'" was found in the Ellensville Ulster plant?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 8:46 pm 
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The move to Ellenville was actually a consolidation of the Schrade Walden and Ulster plants, and resulted in the move to the Ulster plant in Ellenville, which is where they remained until the big consolidation with Imperial in the late 1980's.. The first Old Timers were actually the Schrade Walden 2OT and 8OT, which were intro'd in the 1959(2OT)-1960(8OT) time period. The 2OT didn't last long, much of it was made from parts left over from an earlier Schrade Cut. Co. knife, and the tooling wasn't available to keep it going, the 8OT was an 881 in new clothing. Both knives at the time were made with bone covers, with the 8OT going to delrin within a year or so. The Ulster variants were intro'd within a year of the Schrades; 50Ot and 58Ot in 1960.

The Imperial plant was the volume powerhouse, with many of the Schrades and Ulsters being made or partially made there as well (including the Old Timers). Folks have to remember that all three companies were owned by the same folks, so there was a lot of cross-manufacturing going on, which tended to rack up some pretty high shipping expenses. This was a major reason for the eventual consolidation of everything under one roof.

The 25th anniversary old timer knife was released in 1984.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 11:53 am 
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Eric (and others), this is so incredibly helpful. I really appreciate it.

I guess the language in the Wikipedia entry must have been referring to the combined Schrade-Walden/Ulster operation and the Imperial (Providence) operation as the two that were kept separate. In any event, it explains a lot to know that Schrade-Walden and Ulster came out of the same plant.

Newbie question here and not meaning to dispute the claim that the first Old Timer came out 59 under the Schrade name... How are dates of first appearance typically documented or confirmed? I know from the bike collecting world this can be tricky.

I note that neither the 59 nor 60 Schrade catalogs (posted at Schrades-r-us) have any mention of the Old Timers, while the 60 Ulster catalog does. On the other hand, the 59 emergence of 20T seems well accepted. How is that date established? Again, not disputing. Just trying to understand.

Thanks,

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 4:24 pm 
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Pinnah: I thought you might be interested to see this 580 T I came up with recently. A rough example, but I was kind of excited to find one.

Image

Image

Image

Bone handles, milled liners, with the 580 T stamped on the back tang. There are a few of the 50 T jack versions around with bone handles too.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 7:13 pm 
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Hal,
Any example of a 58OT with bone handles & milled liners is excellent!
I was not aware that those even existed.
VERY COOL! :shock: ::tu:: ::tu:: ::tu:: 8)

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:26 pm 
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Hal, that's just fantastic! What a beautiful example, you sure have been finding some rare ones! ::tu::


Dave, catalogs, memos, photos etc. are the norm. Here are a couple of examples re. the Old Timers. Both of these are from annual sales meetings held at the end of each year and featuring the next year's line, and pep talks for the salesmen. The meetings were for entire conglomerate (Schrade-Walden, Ulster/Kingston, and Imperial). The first is from the 1958 meeting and discusses the new 2OT, the second is from the 1959 meeting and introduces the 8OT as well (you can click the documents to enlarge them, twice to make 'em really big) :shock: :


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:40 am 
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thawk wrote:
Pinnah: I thought you might be interested to see this 580 T I came up with recently.


You misspelled "jealous". :D

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:03 am 
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ea42 wrote:
Dave, catalogs, memos, photos etc. are the norm. Here are a couple of examples re. the Old Timers. Both of these are from annual sales meetings held at the end of each year and featuring the next year's line, and pep talks for the salesmen. The meetings were for entire conglomerate (Schrade-Walden, Ulster/Kingston, and Imperial). The first is from the 1958 meeting and discusses the new 2OT, the second is from the 1959 meeting and introduces the 8OT as well (you can click the documents to enlarge them, twice to make 'em really big) :shock: :


Eric, thanks so much for taking the time to post those. Fantastic to see them.

I've dug through more bicycle catalogs than I can count (different obsession) and seeing sales memos like that isn't too common. Two lessons I've learned with old bikes is that a) "models" can morph as parts and manufacturing shifts and b) these changes may or may not be fully documented in yearly catalogs.

What I take from those memos was that Old Timers is that Old Timers were sold in 1959 and that the catalogs *may* not have caught up until later. (We've seen that in the bike world a lot.). I say "may" only because I don't know that the repository of "catalogs" at the (great) shrades-r-us site is exhaustive. In the bike world, it's not uncommon for a company to have multiple catalogs or flyers in any given world.

I'm still wondering whether or not the Old Timers were started as Ulsters or Schrades. As you note, if memos were for the whole conglomerate, the memos themselves don't pin it down. Of course, I'm not sure what "brand" means here. Is Old Timer a brand or a line? Is Ulster a brand or a line? My question of if Old Timers were sold as Ulsters before they were sold as Schrade-Waldens may be nonsense.

The really interesting thing to me is the connection to the Ulster plant, not the brand. Really happy to have learned that the carbon bladed OT's started their life in what was the Ulster plant.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:50 am 
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pinnah wrote:
thawk wrote:
Pinnah: I thought you might be interested to see this 580 T I came up with recently.


You misspelled "jealous". :D

Eric - Thanks for posting those memos. I guess it was a poor choice of words Dave. :mrgreen:

The memos Eric has provided, and the catalogs sure show how misconceptions easily arise with Schrade collecting. The memos do not mention genuine bone handles, they say Meerschaum, which is a whole other episode for discussion. The literature on the collectors site shows oval shields on the 8OT drawings, not the bar shields they ended up using. Schrade was notorious for discrepancies in their marketing literature. Especially the illustrations not being updated.

Image

I snagged this one last month. I notice the OLD TIMER stamped bolster is depicted on two lines on the "string ticket sales pitch". I'm sure they had no idea at the time how dramatic it would be around the turn of the century they decided to use the real bone instead of Delrin. On another note, I'd never thought of the 2OT as a sleeveboard pattern, but I guess it is.

Image

This example has a tipped clip blade, some well deserved carbon tarnish and a touches of rust. However it was cool it still has the original price sticker in the box.

Image

Image

Hope you don't mind the pictures in your thread. I had not taken the 2OT out in the yard for pictures yet, so yesterday seemed like a good day for it.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:14 pm 
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thawk

::woot:: Now that is Sweet ::woot::

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 3:17 pm 
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That is awesome Hal! ::drool:: ::drool:: ::drool::
Easily worth 100 times the $5 sticker price.

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