A couple of theories about dating Boker knives
- rangerbluedog
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A couple of theories about dating Boker knives
Working on a couple of theories about dating an old Boker knife. I'm throwing this out there for your ideas and photos... I put all my Boker knives on the table today. They've become my focus recently, simply because it's a challenge to find information. Anyways, here's something I noticed.
Ringed Bolsters
It appears to me that almost all of my pre- 1970 Bokers have ringed bolsters. Somewhere between 1969-1972 they stopped doing that on MOST Boker knives. They did seem to continue the ringed bolsters on some of the congress patterns. But the basic jackknife and stockman patterns I have migrate to unringed bolsters during the '70s & 80's. Nowadays it seems they're back in vogue though - on my new copperhead pattern for instance.
Same could be said for swedged blades...
Shields
I wish I could find some Boker catalogs from 1950-1960. I have access to the 1972 catalog and all of the shields have the tree brand on them in some fashion. Back in the early 1900-1920 time frame the shields were purely decorative - bars, federal shields, etc. - but no tree. Approximately when did that change?
With TJT's help I've also begun to notice the different diameters of the round tree shields. When I compared my knives, the late 1960s knives had a 10mm diameter shield. All the newer ones I have are smaller.
I know that the shield size depended a lot on the size of the knife, but were some sizes more prevalent during some decades? I think the current ones are 9mm. But I also have 6mm, 8mm in my collection.
Break out the calipers guys! If you have a knife that you're certain about the date, what size is the shield?
Knife World's excellent article by Mark Zalesky did an awful lot to "roll back the clouds of ignorance" surrounding the tang stamps, but I noticed some differences in the Boker USA tang stamp too. (Dimensions, "sharpness" of the letters, hot vs. cold stamping) There's still an awful lot to learn...
Ringed Bolsters
It appears to me that almost all of my pre- 1970 Bokers have ringed bolsters. Somewhere between 1969-1972 they stopped doing that on MOST Boker knives. They did seem to continue the ringed bolsters on some of the congress patterns. But the basic jackknife and stockman patterns I have migrate to unringed bolsters during the '70s & 80's. Nowadays it seems they're back in vogue though - on my new copperhead pattern for instance.
Same could be said for swedged blades...
Shields
I wish I could find some Boker catalogs from 1950-1960. I have access to the 1972 catalog and all of the shields have the tree brand on them in some fashion. Back in the early 1900-1920 time frame the shields were purely decorative - bars, federal shields, etc. - but no tree. Approximately when did that change?
With TJT's help I've also begun to notice the different diameters of the round tree shields. When I compared my knives, the late 1960s knives had a 10mm diameter shield. All the newer ones I have are smaller.
I know that the shield size depended a lot on the size of the knife, but were some sizes more prevalent during some decades? I think the current ones are 9mm. But I also have 6mm, 8mm in my collection.
Break out the calipers guys! If you have a knife that you're certain about the date, what size is the shield?
Knife World's excellent article by Mark Zalesky did an awful lot to "roll back the clouds of ignorance" surrounding the tang stamps, but I noticed some differences in the Boker USA tang stamp too. (Dimensions, "sharpness" of the letters, hot vs. cold stamping) There's still an awful lot to learn...
Re: A couple of theories about dating Boker knives
Hey Blue,
Great thread!!
I only have a couple but i'll mic them tomorrow and let you know.
I do have though about a dozen pages from a 1961 Belknap catalog ( which is about 5" thick) that covers the knives they were selling then. It covers Schrade,John Primble and boker. Out of about 28 boker models only the congress knives have the ringed bolsters. I'll be glad to mail you a copy, just end me your mailing address.
daleatkins@suddenlink.net
Great thread!!
I only have a couple but i'll mic them tomorrow and let you know.
I do have though about a dozen pages from a 1961 Belknap catalog ( which is about 5" thick) that covers the knives they were selling then. It covers Schrade,John Primble and boker. Out of about 28 boker models only the congress knives have the ringed bolsters. I'll be glad to mail you a copy, just end me your mailing address.
daleatkins@suddenlink.net
Re: A couple of theories about dating Boker knives
P.S.
thanks for the photos, i love seeing the older models.
thanks for the photos, i love seeing the older models.
Re: A couple of theories about dating Boker knives
Hey Blue,
The large stag lockblade with the blade and bail has a large 10mm sheild and the script is written small & tree on the front
The large lockblade with the release on the back has a 9mm sheild and large script & tree on the back
The single blade jack has a 9mm sheild and largescript also & tree on the back
The double jack is 9mm and stamped inox wit tree on the front
The 2020 is stamped boker soligen germany,9mm & tree on the front
the camp is like the 2020,9mm and the tree on the front
The large stag lockblade with the blade and bail has a large 10mm sheild and the script is written small & tree on the front
The large lockblade with the release on the back has a 9mm sheild and large script & tree on the back
The single blade jack has a 9mm sheild and largescript also & tree on the back
The double jack is 9mm and stamped inox wit tree on the front
The 2020 is stamped boker soligen germany,9mm & tree on the front
the camp is like the 2020,9mm and the tree on the front
- rangerbluedog
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Re: A couple of theories about dating Boker knives
Thanks Dale,
I'm sitting here with about 80 knives lined up in front of me right now. One other question for you. If you look at the knives from the bottom (spring side). Looking closely at the interface between the bolster and the handle material. Are they straight up (90 degrees) or angled about 10-15 degrees toward the ends of the knife?
I've convinced myself the older the knife, the larger the angle.
Beautiful knives by the way - thanks for posting! What is the handle material on that camp knife?
I must not obsess, I must not obsess, I must not obsess, I must not obsess ...
I'm sitting here with about 80 knives lined up in front of me right now. One other question for you. If you look at the knives from the bottom (spring side). Looking closely at the interface between the bolster and the handle material. Are they straight up (90 degrees) or angled about 10-15 degrees toward the ends of the knife?
I've convinced myself the older the knife, the larger the angle.
Beautiful knives by the way - thanks for posting! What is the handle material on that camp knife?
I must not obsess, I must not obsess, I must not obsess, I must not obsess ...
Re: A couple of theories about dating Boker knives
Hey Blue,
Fix your dam camera I gotta see those knives!
I looked hard and close, all mine are a straight 90 but now I'm curious. some of your blosters dovetailed? Are they dovetailed to hold the handle in tighter or dovetailed outwards as to leave a smoother edge meeting the handle? I had a man dovetail the bolster on a hunting knife he made me so that it would"theoretically" hold the bone in tighter and stronger. Personally I like the dovetailed idea, it just looks stronger and you know it took more time and skill to do.
Got another question but i'll throw it on another thread to keep this one running clear
Fix your dam camera I gotta see those knives!
I looked hard and close, all mine are a straight 90 but now I'm curious. some of your blosters dovetailed? Are they dovetailed to hold the handle in tighter or dovetailed outwards as to leave a smoother edge meeting the handle? I had a man dovetail the bolster on a hunting knife he made me so that it would"theoretically" hold the bone in tighter and stronger. Personally I like the dovetailed idea, it just looks stronger and you know it took more time and skill to do.
Got another question but i'll throw it on another thread to keep this one running clear
- rangerbluedog
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Re: A couple of theories about dating Boker knives
Hey Dale,
They're pointing out, about 10-15 degrees. Just the opposite of the one in your last picture.
They're pointing out, about 10-15 degrees. Just the opposite of the one in your last picture.
- rangerbluedog
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Re: A couple of theories about dating Boker knives
Here's a photo of an old congress knife I have, showing the slanted bolster/handle interface. This one has a "tree brand" shield, which I believe dates this knife in the 1950s <wrong. see post below>. I have an old 9885 with the same shield taken apart in my shop that has the same angled bolsters. I believe they had stopped doing this entirely by the mid 1970s.
Re: A couple of theories about dating Boker knives
The angle is definitely there but I've never seen it before or if I did i just didn't notice it.
- muskrat man
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Re: A couple of theories about dating Boker knives
blue that angle is common on delrin handled knives, It is my belief they did not take the time to square up the ends of the bolsters and the handles were pressed fit hot onto the liners and were "melted" between the bolsters in a way. I have rarely seen wood or bone handled knives fof any make or age with this, but many earlier delrin handled knives did have it in various makes and models.
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- rangerbluedog
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Re: A couple of theories about dating Boker knives
Good info M-M. I may have to re-evaluate the "TREE BRAND" shield dating. If this indicates delrin use, then this knife would be no older that 1960, most likely.
<edit 4/6/10> Have acquired a few more of these knives with the tapered bolster. M-M, I am convinced you are correct. This would put use of the "Tree Brand" shield pictured above circa 1965 - early 1970s, I believe.
<edit 4/6/10> Have acquired a few more of these knives with the tapered bolster. M-M, I am convinced you are correct. This would put use of the "Tree Brand" shield pictured above circa 1965 - early 1970s, I believe.
Re: A couple of theories about dating Boker knives
blue, any way i could get a copy of the 1972 catalog you have. if it is possible . thanks denny
- rangerbluedog
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Re: A couple of theories about dating Boker knives
Absolutely! Here's the link:
http://jwissandsons.com/catalogs/B72-73.pdf
There is also a price sheet from 1975 at the same site:
http://jwissandsons.com/catalogs/B-954.pdf
http://jwissandsons.com/catalogs/B72-73.pdf
There is also a price sheet from 1975 at the same site:
http://jwissandsons.com/catalogs/B-954.pdf
Re: A couple of theories about dating Boker knives
I have a small,what I call, dogleg or reverse peanut, Boker. It is like a butter and molasses, but more of a yellow and reddish color. Like a strawberry and cream so to say. No shield, 2 blade and it just has Boker USA on the tang with a number on the reverse side. 9903
How do you date one without a shield and when did they first start the tree shield?
Thank you.
How do you date one without a shield and when did they first start the tree shield?
Thank you.
- rangerbluedog
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Re: A couple of theories about dating Boker knives
The yellow and red color you describe sounds like what Boker called "New Horn Pyralin" handles. They were introduced in the 1920s and went out of fashion in the mid to late 1950s.Beag1eGal wrote:I have a small,what I call, dogleg or reverse peanut, Boker. It is like a butter and molasses, but more of a yellow and reddish color. Like a strawberry and cream so to say. No shield, 2 blade and it just has Boker USA on the tang with a number on the reverse side. 9903
How do you date one without a shield and when did they first start the tree shield?
Thank you.
The BOKER USA tang stamp was used by H. Boker and Co. on the US manufactured knives starting around WW2, or slightly after.
BOKER Germany used the round tree shield since probably the early 1900s, but I believe BOKER USA only began to use the round shield with the tree logo around 1954.
So I believe your knife was made circa 1954-1956.
Re: A couple of theories about dating Boker knives
Thank you so much! That helps an awful lot.
By the way, your knife is BEAUTIFUL!!!
By the way, your knife is BEAUTIFUL!!!
- rangerbluedog
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Re: A couple of theories about dating Boker knives
After seeing the pictures I see I have made an error. You plainly stated in your original post that your knife has no shield. What I originally understood that to mean was that the shield was missing. That's a pretty common problem. So I will now correct myself. With no shield I think this is more likely a mid to late 1940s knife.
Up until WW2, the German branch of the Boker family owned the rights to the tree trademark. During WW2, the trademark in the US was rescinded. The U.S. branch of the Boker family retained the trademark again in 1947. So there are still knives to be found that were made in the years following WW2 with only the BOKER USA tang stamp to identify them.
Up until WW2, the German branch of the Boker family owned the rights to the tree trademark. During WW2, the trademark in the US was rescinded. The U.S. branch of the Boker family retained the trademark again in 1947. So there are still knives to be found that were made in the years following WW2 with only the BOKER USA tang stamp to identify them.
Re: A couple of theories about dating Boker knives
Okay, sorry, I maybe should have been a little clearer on my description.
I will try to think of these things when asking questions. Kind of new at this even though I have been collecting for some time.
I appreciate the information.
have a great day!
I will try to think of these things when asking questions. Kind of new at this even though I have been collecting for some time.
I appreciate the information.
have a great day!
- rangerbluedog
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Re: A couple of theories about dating Boker knives
Haha, not your fault. You were clear in your first post, I was just a sloppy reader. My fault entirely!