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LOCK BLADE LOCK-UP; is tighter better?
Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:37 pm
by Gunstock Jack
There's been a lot of discussion about tight lock-up; especially concerning lock back knives. Since the introduction of the 72 pattern lock back, I've picked up quite a few examples of this fine knife, and I've noticed that out of a dozen knives, only one or two will lock up without movement, or with minimal movement. Most others have what translates to about 1/64" blade play at the tip. I’ve noticed this same phenomena with other quality makers lock backs as well. This doesn't really bother me, although I would prefer no movement. Which brings me to the liner lock. This style knife has been sort of re-popularized by GEC's production of 23L's and 73L's.The design of the lock forces the blade to lock-up very tightly. You cannot find any movement in most any of GEC's liner lock models. Try it yourself!
So; does the tightness of your locked up blade really matter? If it does, then the lock back must give you fits!!! Apparently a tight fitting one is a matter of chance in a production environment due to the tolerances involved. What do you guys think?
Both of these knives lock up very tightly.
Re: LOCK BLADE LOCK-UP; is tighter better?
Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 11:11 pm
by WelderBob
Barry, If properly fitted a tail lock should be as tight as a linerlock...but some are not. I've sent two gec 72's back because of excessive play...close to a 1/32", both now have a tight lockup. I just got a 72 spear blade a few days ago and it's going back also...I like my blade's tight....
Re: LOCK BLADE LOCK-UP; is tighter better?
Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 11:45 pm
by big monk
Not an issue,with me ******just ordered another one
____but ,I learn something new from you guys,everyday_____I am a "'VERY BIG FAN"" of both the #72 Lockback & #73 Linerlock
Re: LOCK BLADE LOCK-UP; is tighter better?
Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 4:15 pm
by biglmbass
So; does the tightness of your locked up blade really matter?
I
think it would bother me if it wasn't tight. I'd rather a chipped handle, high pin, crooked shield or similar other issue than a loose lock-up. I've only one 72 in my collection and I may have gotten very lucky with it as I could not detect any play at all. Now you've got me thinking I need to check it again...
::facepalm:
Re: LOCK BLADE LOCK-UP; is tighter better?
Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 4:23 pm
by knives-are-quiet
Any movement will cause more play as time goes by with use.
Lock backs should be tight but not so tight you have difficulty releasing the lock.
J W
Re: LOCK BLADE LOCK-UP; is tighter better?
Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 4:35 pm
by Earl
Agree with biglmbass,cosmetic stuff I can deal with, to a degree ..........but I gotta have sound function. Double checked my new GEC SS lockbacks last night,all good,checked the others this morning,all tight,no play,sounds like I musta got lucky
Re: LOCK BLADE LOCK-UP; is tighter better?
Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:48 pm
by Gunstock Jack
Re: LOCK BLADE LOCK-UP; is tighter better?
Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 2:58 am
by Earl
I don't think so Barry.........
Re: LOCK BLADE LOCK-UP; is tighter better?
Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 11:47 pm
by On Edge
I don't think so, either.
I have sent back innumerable knives because of blade "wobble" ...
... and I've been accused of being "one of them guys lookin for a perfect knife", "too damn picky", "unreasonable", you name it, but I just cannot abide a wobbly blade right out of the box ...
.... and I will continue to send them back.
I am one of those people that if somethin bugs me right away, it will NEVER stop bugging me ... and knowing that, I will pay the postage, go through the mailing game, do whatever it takes, including throwing in the towel and just not having a certain knife if that's what it comes down to ...
Too picky? ... maybe, but I'm happy with the knives I
do have ....
~ Edge
Re: LOCK BLADE LOCK-UP; is tighter better?
Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 2:21 am
by knives-are-quiet
On Edge wrote:
I don't think so, either.
I have sent back innumerable knives because of blade "wobble" ...
... and I've been accused of being "one of them guys lookin for a perfect knife", "too damn picky", "unreasonable", you name it, but I just cannot abide a wobbly blade right out of the box ...
.... and I will continue to send them back.
I am one of those people that if somethin bugs me right away, it will NEVER stop bugging me ... and knowing that, I will pay the postage, go through the mailing game, do whatever it takes, including throwing in the towel and just not having a certain knife if that's what it comes down to ...
Too picky? ... maybe, but I'm happy with the knives I
do have ....
~ Edge
Maybe if people like you keep sending them back, these companies will improve there quality control. "Picky" your not. You are a paying customer who is unsatisfied with a product.
They may think a little wobble in the blade is within there tolerance range.
But there should be zero tolerance when it comes to an unhappy customer.
"what's that old saying?" ---------->
(THE CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT)
Re: LOCK BLADE LOCK-UP; is tighter better?
Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:32 am
by HiPower
knives-are-quiet wrote:On Edge wrote:
I don't think so, either.
I have sent back innumerable knives because of blade "wobble" ...
... and I've been accused of being "one of them guys lookin for a perfect knife", "too damn picky", "unreasonable", you name it, but I just cannot abide a wobbly blade right out of the box ...
.... and I will continue to send them back.
I am one of those people that if somethin bugs me right away, it will NEVER stop bugging me ... and knowing that, I will pay the postage, go through the mailing game, do whatever it takes, including throwing in the towel and just not having a certain knife if that's what it comes down to ...
Too picky? ... maybe, but I'm happy with the knives I
do have ....
~ Edge
Maybe if people like you keep sending them back, these companies will improve there quality control. "Picky" your not. You are a paying customer who is unsatisfied with a product.
They may think a little wobble in the blade is within there tolerance range.
But there should be zero tolerance when it comes to an unhappy customer.
"what's that old saying?" ---------->
(THE CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT)
Re: LOCK BLADE LOCK-UP; is tighter better?
Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:38 am
by HiPower
i've only found some of the lockbacks with a tiny amount of vertical play if knife is held by the tip. does'nt bother me. however if usage thru time increases this movement then gec has a problem that needs addressing.---HiPower
Re: LOCK BLADE LOCK-UP; is tighter better?
Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 3:51 pm
by johnny twoshoes
I love a tight lock up on any knife, it's the last thing I check when looking at a knife. I put my full attention into what the blade says when I try to move him from his home, if it's only minor, I don't complain.
I've sent back 3 knives for blade play, they all returned perfect. It's not being Picky when you know a company can do better, especially when your paying Top Dollar for a "quality" item. GEC will make it right, every time.
Re: LOCK BLADE LOCK-UP; is tighter better?
Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 1:02 pm
by knifeswapper
You have to be happy with the knife; if you are not happy - GEC is not happy.
Having said that, you need to make sure you understand the difference in design between a lockback and the slipjoints. A lockback backspring is really not much of a "spring" at all, it is a locking bar with only one pin at the fulcrum and inside pressure at the backend. This is different from the slipjoints that have two pins causing that "spring" pressure that has gotten GEC famous.
Two things (at least) that are peaves at the GEC factory are open backsprings and blade play. You rarely see either one. But, like all makers of lockbacks you have to find a fine line that everyone can live with. They shim the joint when peening it to allow for free flow of the blade such that you do not have to push it open / closed. If you do not shim, or get the joint too tight, then there is too much resistance in the movement for the lockback to have any affect on the open / close function. Now understand that the factory definition of "play" or "wobble" is if the movement can be felt during normal operation of the knife. Many modern collectors / users define it a discernible movement when holding the knife in one hand and the tip of the blade in the thumb/forefinger of the other.
Case, Buck, most others have a tighter joint and have found their customers complain less about that than the pushing the blade into position on most examples. Queen, GEC, some others have went with a shim joint which provides minimal resistance such that the lockbar can cause a flow in the blade open / close function - but leaves a small amount of play most times.
It is no problem to fix it either way and most people have a preference one way or the other. You can re-peen the joint without a shim and get it tight as you want it on Queen / GEC's or loosen and shim it on Case / Buck's. But very seldom do you find a lockback with good hard snap and a rock solid lockup. I found out a long time ago that a $100 investment in the equipment to fix these minor issues / preferences was a good investment. If you want to understand the complexities of getting it perfect; take a knife apart and put it back together!
But the factory wants everyone to be happy, even if it puts them in the red on a product. So, if it bothers you, send it to them. If they don't feel like they can fix it to your satisfaction, they will replace / refund it. Nothing is worse than getting a knot it your craw every time you pick a knife up.
Re: LOCK BLADE LOCK-UP; is tighter better?
Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 7:16 pm
by HiPower
knifeswapper wrote:You have to be happy with the knife; if you are not happy - GEC is not happy.
Having said that, you need to make sure you understand the difference in design between a lockback and the slipjoints. A lockback backspring is really not much of a "spring" at all, it is a locking bar with only one pin at the fulcrum and inside pressure at the backend. This is different from the slipjoints that have two pins causing that "spring" pressure that has gotten GEC famous.
Two things (at least) that are peaves at the GEC factory are open backsprings and blade play. You rarely see either one. But, like all makers of lockbacks you have to find a fine line that everyone can live with. They shim the joint when peening it to allow for free flow of the blade such that you do not have to push it open / closed. If you do not shim, or get the joint too tight, then there is too much resistance in the movement for the lockback to have any affect on the open / close function. Now understand that the factory definition of "play" or "wobble" is if the movement can be felt during normal operation of the knife. Many modern collectors / users define it a discernible movement when holding the knife in one hand and the tip of the blade in the thumb/forefinger of the other.
Case, Buck, most others have a tighter joint and have found their customers complain less about that than the pushing the blade into position on most examples. Queen, GEC, some others have went with a shim joint which provides minimal resistance such that the lockbar can cause a flow in the blade open / close function - but leaves a small amount of play most times.
It is no problem to fix it either way and most people have a preference one way or the other. You can re-peen the joint without a shim and get it tight as you want it on Queen / GEC's or loosen and shim it on Case / Buck's. But very seldom do you find a lockback with good hard snap and a rock solid lockup. I found out a long time ago that a $100 investment in the equipment to fix these minor issues / preferences was a good investment. If you want to understand the complexities of getting it perfect; take a knife apart and put it back together!
But the factory wants everyone to be happy, even if it puts them in the red on a product. So, if it bothers you, send it to them. If they don't feel like they can fix it to your satisfaction, they will replace / refund it. Nothing is worse than getting a knot it your craw every time you pick a knife up.
Re: LOCK BLADE LOCK-UP; is tighter better?
Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 2:59 pm
by biglmbass
biglmbass wrote: So; does the tightness of your locked up blade really matter?
I
think it would bother me if it wasn't tight. I'd rather a chipped handle, high pin, crooked shield or similar other issue than a loose lock-up. I've only one 72 in my collection and I may have gotten very lucky with it as I could not detect any play at all. Now you've got me thinking I need to check it again...
::facepalm:
Update:
Received a 2nd 72 in red wine and easily noticed some vertical blade play which prompted me to check my other 72. Yep, both have it though only slight. Back they go...
I'm going to try a 73 next.
Re: LOCK BLADE LOCK-UP; is tighter better?
Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:24 am
by Gunstock Jack
Well, after reading everyone's opinion in this forum and emailing Chris at GEC, I was finally convinced; I sent two 72's back today for the tighten-up.
So then I'm trying out my new diamond hones for my ol' Lansky on my EDC 735108ECL and I decide to check the play on it's blade, as I've been carrying it for a couple years and it been a super knife. Guess what! Damn thing has play both ways too! I never noticed it before and it has never been an issue. So there goes my theory on the merits of the two designs!
But, hey! The new diamond hones work great!!!
